Ekos and Aro

I find this issue intriging.

I have an Ekos - apparently it is an early EkosII but nobody told me that, I just found out from the serial numbers.

Knowing my other preferences I should love the Aro and certainly I think it is a superb tone arm and extremely versatile.

I have listened to music on an LP12 using the Aro quite a lot over the years. Most often with a Troika and a DV17II but also with various other cartridges going back to an ATF5 and culminating in (so far) some extotrtionately expensive Dynavectors and Lyras.

I have listened at friends homes, my dealer's (not his home - which no doubt sounds better?), exhibitions/hotel type demos (Naim did an excellent demo evening at Phonography in Ringwood a couple of years ago but unless I missed it they didn't use a TT) and at the Naim factory. I've tried it Valhalla, Lingo and geddon - and it has always sounded stunning.

I have only listened to the Ekos/Aro head to head twice.

The first time was in 1990ish Ekos/Aro/Ittok(which I had at the time) all on Valhalla LP12s. Amps were I think 72/Hicap/250 and speakers were (my) Kans Mk1 and Epos14s.

I preferred the Ekos by far -the only area that I thought the Aro was better was a feeling of more emotion on female vocals. However, I bought a new LP12 Lingo, which had just been released, because I thought it was better than the tone arm change. FWIW I still believe that Valhalla to Lingo was/is a huge improvement.

When I was ready to upgrade the arm and cartridge I bought the Ekos and a Troika - I was still using Kans Mk1.

I next listened to the Aro/Ekos head to head at a dealer demo - my LP12/Lingo/Ekos against an LP12 Valhalla/Aro when I was choosing a replacemnet cartridge. Although that might seem strange I don't think the geddon was commercially available then (I could be wrong). Again I preferred the Ekos.

Playing Devil's Advocate (which film is on TV now as my wife is watching it) I appreciate that my preference could have resulted from other factors. I know that when I heard the geddon in isolation I preffered it to the Lingo, but I was v contented with my choice of arm - it was mine no-one elses - and I've had my Ekos for 9 very happy years......

........but in the intervening period I bought (and still use) SBLs, which I first tried with an Ekos on an LP12 although I know some say that they don't work with the Ekos, and I have never actually tried an Aro at home.

As time went by I didn't go for the Cirkus update (I choose not to say "upgrade" and that remains my view, although I apprecitiate that if I were buying an LP12 today (which I would all other things being equal) it would come Cirkussed), but more importantly when I first heard an LP12/geddon/Aro/Lyra Clavis (I think it was)/Prefix I thought it much better than my own TT. They were not compared directly but I think most forum members know when they hear more music.

Whether the Prefix was the killer product I don't know, as the cartridge was manifestly better than the one I was using.

....but I still love my LP12/Lingo/Ekos and although I do need a new cartridge on balance it is likely to be in the £500ish price range and one that works is an Ekos, also (short of an act of god/insurance claim - or someone saying "Chris here's a spare Aro do you want it").

I can't see me changing either my tonearm or my TT power supply (although it does do rather unpleasant things to my CDX).

I know that I preferred the Ekos to the Aro before but the rules have changed so who knows now.........perhaps I should do a direct comparison and take a view?.... but that is easier said than done.

Chris

I'm afraid that so-called Ekos v ARO demo was utterly worthless because there were too many differences between the two turntables. All you can conclude is that you preferred LP12/Armageddon/ARO to LP12/Lingo/Trampolin/Ekos -which isn't a terribly useful piece of information...

I suspect that if you prefer the Armageddon to the Lingo, you will do so by a large margin - because, judging by my brief dem of what may have been a prototype Armageddon, what the Armageddon does better it does a lot better [which didn't stop me preferring the Lingo]. Consequently, you would probably prefer an Armageddon/ARO to a Lingo/Ekos even if you preferred Ekos to ARO. It means more work on your turntables, but if you're going to all that trouble it's worth comparing Armageddon/Ekos with Lingo/ARO too.

Finally, I hate to pour oil on troubled water but I really think you should consider a Cirkus. It took me a long time to adapt to mine, and others prefer the previous subchassis/bearing but there is such a huge sonic difference that if you do prefer it you may well consider it a more significant upgrade in most respects than the upgrade from Valhalla to Lingo.

--Jeremy

[This message was edited by Sproggle on SUNDAY 24 June 2001 at 01:15.]

Jeremy

I agreed with every word of your post - until you mentioned the Cirkus.

So while we could just agree to differ as I didn't give it a real go (at home) I'm going to re-listen as you are so positive about the benefits.

My gut feelng is that I will still prefer my Ekos but I'd change to the geddon (why did I say that, bang goes the open mind, but if you read magazines ..(unlikely to be opinion forming as they are too wet) or even read this forum you will inevitably have pre-conceptions? - the cartridge however is another issue).

Opinions I respect would lead me to believe I need a Dynavector XX2 - but will it work in an Ekos and who is going to give me me the money?

ken c - do you have an opinion on this?

Chris

V happy listening to his running in XPS - actually the difference is bigger than I expected and that includes me spending time with the XPS befor I decided to buy it.

I v nearly went for the Supercap instead, but although the Supercap is magical, I think it needs a certain level of performance to truly work its magic.

I was starting to feel guilty about singing the prises of the CDX - except that it is f#*@~ing fantastic, and the XPS is the icing on the cake.

Chris

Paul et al--

I've owned both an Ekos 2 and now an Aro, and heard them extensively in the same system. The shop I used to work in had LP12s set up so you could compare the Ekos v the Aro (and the Lingo v the Armageddon).

Overall, I'd say the Ekos has a slight advantage in the bass--it sounds more punchy, extended and weightier. The Aro sounds more natural from the midrange on up and sounds to me to be more natural and expressive. The Aro is also more tuneful and has a finer dynamic gradation then the Ekos, which can't do small dynamic changes nearly as well as the Aro. I'd rate the Aro's advantages to be larger than the Ekos' in the bass and thus rate the Aro higher than the Ekos. That said, I don't want to exaggerate the differences--if the Aro didn't exist I'd have the Ekos--nothing else comes close (IMO) on an LP12.

For anyone that loves what Naim in general does the Aro is a natural fit, although I still have to say the Ekos is a terrific arm.

Cheers,

Bob

Ride the Light !!

Bob:

What you have stated about the qualities of the Aro and Ekos are my conclusions as well. Overall I certainly preferred the Naimed LP12 in these two configurations because of this.

Jeremy:

I am quite aware that the demo did not just compare the two tonearms but two different LP12 systems. I should have perhaps used a different title rather than "Aro and Ekos" as it implies that this is the only comparison. However, I don't agree that the demo was "worthless" as it is probably as good as it will ever get. No dealer that I have encountered is willing today to strip down two LP12s to determine every possible permutation involving Lingo vs Armageddon and Aro vs Ekos (especially since they use different motors in North America - 50hz for the Lingo/60hz for the Armageddon). The demo is probably as good as I will ever get at a dealer to which I have access.

My interest is not just Ekos vs Aro anyway. If I didn't think that my LP12 with Ekos/Lingo was any good I would have purchased something else by now. IMO the LP12 in either configuration is still far ahead of any CD replay that I have heard. (Please note IMO - I do not want to start a debate on the merits of CD replay vs lps.) I am interested to discover what the merits of the Naimed LP12 are in comparison to the Linn in the context of a Naim amp/speaker system. What I have discovered from the demo is that the qualities of the Naimed LP12 do indeed differ markedly from the full-Linn LP12 and are to me worth investigating further. The demo may have been flawed but it provided me with enough information to consider purchase of an Aro/Armageddon not as a replacement but as an alternative to my present LP12. Once I get both installed in my system I will be able to make further comments as to the merits of each LP12 system.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Interesting post.
Paul said:
"However, there are two variables in this comparison. First of all the Ekos/LP12 had a Trampolinn installed, the Naimed LP12 did not"

"Well I was shocked: the Naimed LP12 - to use one of Linn's phrases - was simply better - in all respects!!!"

Paul,

I have compared the same LP12/Cirkus/Ekos2/Klyde with and without Trampolin on a few occasions. I have no doubt that if a dealer had two identical LP12's with and without Trampolin where both tables were on identical competent supports, you would hear a similar level of difference where you would conclude that one was simply better that the other as well.

Regards,
John

[This message was edited by John Gilleran on SUNDAY 24 June 2001 at 15:53.]

"These variables MAY account for the significant difference between the two tables and the superiority of the Naimed LP12. I am not sure that this is entirely the case and as a result my next purchase will be an Aro/Armageddon and probably Prefix as well. I do not intend to replace my Ekos/Lingo yet as I already have a second LP12 (before Cirkus) waiting for this installation. Then I will make the comparison at length again in my own system."

Paul,

So does your Ekos/Lingo have the Cirkus? If so then the deck you plan on adding the Naim bits to will have a different bearing, another big variable if you ask me. IMO, you would get more music satisfaction sorting out the bearing in the context of your current setup. Source first!

Regards,
John

While I found the Ekos sounding artificial and mechanical (though powerful), I found the ARO lacking weight in bass (though natural, sweet and clear), so both of these top arms do not make it for me.

I am more an addict of Mission Mechanic or Zeta, both combining power, ability to rock as well as utmost detail and sweetness when necessary. Only drawback is: both are discontinued long ago, had problems with sample consistency, and after some years the Zeta should be overhauled to get rid of the sticky grease inside the bearings (and to adjust the bearings properly).

BTW, if you like a unipivot, the Moerch UP-4 delivers most of the ARO's sound, while costing less than half. The Moerch DP-6 (not unipivot) is said to sound even better, but I haven't yet compared the DP-6 to the ARO in a proper test environment (and I probably won't in the future, as I have sold my ARO last year). Maybe I will be able to compare UP-4 to DP-6 in a few weeks.

regards,
Hartmut, with long experience in tonearm service

Who was the dealer? Innovative? or Accent on Music. I was very impressed with Accent on Music, not so much with Innovative.

Phil

John:

Both tables in the demo had the Cirkus bearing. (Phil: It was at Innovative - and I have nothing but praise for their consideration of my request and time/advice offered.)

My deck with Ekos/Lingo has a Cirkus. My older deck (which I have in storage w/o arm) is pre-Cirkus. I am familiar enough with the two bearings to recognize that once again there are significant differences and preferences. It has been a long time since I have heard an LP12 w/o the Cirkus bearing though. I used two pre-Cirkus bearing LP12s from 1978 to whenever they came out with the Cirkus, then for some reason decided to buy a new deck with Cirkus and kept the pre-Cirkus for...? My older LP12 is quite up to date except for the bearing.

My intention now is to equip the older deck with the Aro/Armageddon and place it on a Fraim (when available) or Mana. This seems to be a preferred configuration by some?/many? and I would like to try this first before considering installing the Cirkus bearing. I am still hoping that Chris Koster will still give us his findings on the two LP12 bearings and with Fraim/Mana. If I remember correctly, Chris was last using a pre-Cirkus bearing LP12. Despite the shots taken at Chris for his outspoken views on Mana and Naim electronics, I have great respect for his opinion based on his considerable experience setting up Naim gear. This is not just from the forum as I have also been fortunate enough to meet Chris in Seattle when he was demoing the 500/NBLs. In fact it was he who urged me to move to the Aro/Armageddon although at the time I decided to wait until I had a 52.

Paul

[This message was edited by Paul B on MONDAY 25 June 2001 at 01:56.]

[This message was edited by Paul B on MONDAY 25 June 2001 at 02:00.]

I think the main problem for me with the aro/armageddon route is it's lack of practicality! I think it is obsene that you can spend the best part of £2k on upgrading your LP12 and not be able to play 45's. A hi-fi system should not dictate the what you listen to! I have a lingo'd Lp12 with the circus mod and an ittock arm. I am looking to upgrade the arm this year and will probably go for an ekos, the fact that the aro has no lift/lower mechanism is somewhat irksome! I would only be able to play my LP's when sober; I'm sorry but is it that difficult to engineer a suitable lift/lower!

I have had an LP12/Ittok for years. I obediently take it to my dealer for the latest mods when he tells me to, so it has the Cirkus/Lingo/new base etc. but he advised against the Trampolin. His strongest advice is to get an Ekos.
The Ittok is getting on now, but I don't have the cash for an Ekos.
Why can't the Ittok be serviced to return it to new condition? It is a nice black one.
I know this is a Naim forum, but it seems to have exclusive rights to sensible web-advice.

quote:
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I think it is obsene that you can spend the best part of £2k on upgrading your LP12 and not be able to play 45's
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Why not 78s? Some perceptive people claim persuasively that 78s provide a lot more fidelity than 45s or 33s.

Phil, reducing it to the absurd

bob edwards says:

"Overall, I'd say the Ekos has a slight advantage in the bass--it sounds more punchy, extended and weightier. The Aro sounds more natural from the midrange on up and sounds to me to be more natural and expressive. The Aro is also more tuneful and has a finer dynamic gradation then the Ekos, which can't do small dynamic changes nearly as well as the Aro. ... "

my experience exactly.

enjoy

ken

If my inept keyboard mashing is sucessful, a picture of my deck with ARO/Aromatic should be attached. They were still available a couple of months ago when I bought mine. (100 UKP)

Note the lifting arm is connected to the lever by a cable (similar to bicycle brakes). No noticable degradation to the sound and essential kit when soberly deficient.

Now does anyone know where I can get an autochanger for my LP12 so I don't have to keep getting up to change the record

Steve