A great videoclip (and I'm objective!)
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 04 June 2010
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Eloise
Hey ... but don't worry ...
According to The FT and reported on Question Time by the former editor of the Sun last night ... the price of Snickers in Gazza has plunged due to over supply on the black market.
Eloise
P.S. The situation is a lot more complicated than any simple reporting occurs...
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Howlinhounddog
Useful Arye,
Your objestivity reminds me of a talk I had with some Firefighters from Nablus a while ago who told me that they were always pre warned of an attack by Israeli troops on their town. They knew it was about to happen when the tanks rolled up to the fire station and parked over the station apron thus ensuring that the fire station could not respond to the emergency calls from the (soon to be) bombed out residents of Nablus !
But of course this was all Hammas propaganda
A quick search of the web found more lies...
quote:
Current Conflict
There are two primary issues at the core of this continuing conflict. First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when it is largely of foreign origin. The original population of what is now Israel was 96 percent Muslim and Christian, yet, these refugees are prohibited from returning to their homes in the self-described Jewish state (and those within Israel are subjected to systematic discrimination).
Second, Israel's continued military occupation and confiscation of privately owned land in the West Bank, and control over Gaza, are extremely oppressive, with Palestinians having minimal control over their lives. Over 10,000 Palestinian men, women, and children are held in Israeli prisons. Few of them have had a legitimate trial; Physical abuse and torture are frequent. Palestinian borders (even internal ones) are controlled by Israeli forces. Periodically men, women, and children are strip searched; people are beaten; women in labor are prevented from reaching hospitals (at times resulting in death); food and medicine are blocked from entering Gaza, producing an escalating humanitarian crisis. Israeli forces invade almost daily, injuring, kidnapping, and sometimes killing inhabitants.
According to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, these territories were supposed to finally become a Palestinian state. However, after years of Israel continuing to confiscate land and conditions steadily worsening, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the "Intifada" (Arabic for "shaking off") began at the end of September 2000.
U.S. Involvement
Largely due to special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using our tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure.
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
Howlinhounddog,
Everyone sees what he wants to see. For example, why to mention who did oppose the UN decision in the year 1948? Or who did fire thousands of missiles to Israel from the Gaza Strip AFTER Israel had evacuated the area from soldiers and citizens? These are not important facts. Like the clip says: The world is not looking for facts.
Arye
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Eloise
At the end of the day ... if Israel has nothing to hide - let some independent monitors come and investigate. Why won't they let the UN investigate!!!
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
There will be an agreed international investigation. Do you think that the UN is investigating all the events in which states (others but Israel) are involved when innocent citizens are killed?
Arye
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
There will be an agreed international investigation. Do you think that the UN is investigating all the events in which states (others but Israel) are involved when innocent citizens are killed?
An international investigation - not the last I read. Israel said they would hold their own investigation and refused to co-operate with any international / UN investigation.
Secondly, when was the last time a sovereign nation attacked a civilian vessel in international waters. International law states
only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be soughtOkay so Israel would argue that they believed the vessel was transporting weapons however the International laws also states that
An investigation, either by the UN or by the ship's flag-carrier Turkey, is required to find if the use of force was proportionate to a claim of self defence. Thirdly, people's condemnation of Israel is not just about this one incident. We had Israel secret service using stolen / forged passports a few months ago during an assassination. And the whole blockage of Gaza is of dubious legality. Only because of the United States support does Israel get away with it.
Eloise
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
There will be an international investigation. According to the IDF international law department, when people are a threat against a state - like the Hamas in Gaza Strip firing missiles against civilians in Israel - Israel can act against ships that are sailing to the Gaza Strip while they are in international water.
Can you tell me about a state in the world that fires missiles against citizens in another state and the attacked state doesn't response?
Arye
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
There will be an international investigation.
Again, not according to all the News reports I've read. Every statement is that Israel have rejected calls for an internation investigation - please point me to evidence if I am incorrect.
quote:
According to the IDF international law department, when people are a threat against a state - like the Hamas in Gaza Strip firing missiles against civilians in Israel - Israel can act against ships that are sailing to the Gaza Strip while they are in international water.
Just because a sovereign state (I assume IDF is Israeli Defense Force) says that something is legal in international waters doesn't make it so. The British Attourney General saying invading Iraq is legal didn't make it so!
quote:
Can you tell me about a state in the world that fires missiles against citizens in another state and the attacked state doesn't response?
No one is saying that Israel don't have a right to respond and defend themselves, but a lot of the problems with Gaza can be argued they bring on themselves. For a long time they have been attacking Gaza with tanks, rockets and helicopter gunships without Gaza having the ability to respond.
There are very few Rights and Wrongs in this situation, just opinions, interpretations of the law and propoganda. As was said in the past and is still true today: the first casualty of war is the truth.
Eloise
PS. with all due respect as well ... the one thing you most definitely are not in this is objective.
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Howlinhounddog
Arye,
No right thinking person believes that Israel does not have a right to defend itself however
Amnesty Iternational report on Israelthis right has to be measured, and clearly this is not the case. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I'm continually fascinated that in this battle the 'David' with the slingshot is the Palistinian people against a Goliath with phospherous bombs. Sorry for the analogy.
Charlie.
p.s. by way of balance the report on Palastine is further down the page.
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
quote:
PS. with all due respect as well ... the one thing you most definitely are not in this is objective.
I'm not objective, I wrote this with a sence of humor...
Howlinhounddog,
After the Hamas was elected, they murdered 200 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (their own people!) and made dozens of Palestinians cripple by shooting with rifles to their knees. Why? Because they were identified with the Fatah. I don't remember a protest of the world, or someone demands an international investigation for this.
Arye
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Howlinhounddog
Arye,
You are quite correct Hamas did carry out a witch hunt on Fatah supporters, I DO remember the protests about this, there WAS international condemnation. Just because you don't remember it does not mean that it did not happen, it did.
Please don't mistake me for a supporter or appologist for Hamas. I firmly believe Gandhi when he said that an eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.
Charlie
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
I couldn't go to the link that you brought. I read the Amnesty report at their site. I don't know if it is the same report that you are relating to. I have always said that Israel is making many mistakes in the West Bank and it is sad that there is no true dialog between the Palestinians and us. But as it is in any area, the blame is on both sides - at the least. I feel many times that people put a blame on Israel in a very unbalanced way.
Arye
Posted on: 04 June 2010 by David Scott
quote:
I don't remember a protest of the world, or someone demands an international investigation for this.
Arye,
Charlie's right. I remember the protests too. It often happens, when people feel themselves to be hard done by that they remember the incidents which confirm this and not the others.
David
Posted on: 05 June 2010 by Arye_Gur
Ok, I was wrong on this one.
Arye
Posted on: 05 June 2010 by Don Atkinson
quote:
Ok, I was wrong on this one.
Well said Arye. There's not many who have the guts to apologise when they make a mistake.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 08 June 2010 by Howlinhounddog
Ditto Arye
