Horror of horrors and catholic contraceptive devices

David,

The issue of contraception is somewhat contentious to most Catholics. Catholicism is not nearly as dogmatic as some would have you believe, or indeed as it might once have been. Although there is an official line on contraception (that quite possibly needs revisiting), the Church doesn't excommunicate people who don't go along with it, and the vast majority of younger Catholics in the West probably do use some form of contraception. Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

Regards,


Dom
(Read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!)

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
David,

The issue of contraception is somewhat contentious to most Catholics. Catholicism is not nearly as dogmatic as some would have you believe, or indeed as it might once have been. Although there is an official line on contraception (that quite possibly needs revisiting), the Church doesn't excommunicate people who don't go along with it, and the vast majority of younger Catholics in the West probably do use some form of contraception. Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

Regards,


Dom
(Read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!)

Sane post, if I may say so Dom. Having read Dawkins 'The God Delusion' you might also be interested to read 'The Dawkins Delusion' by Alistair McGrath. Indeed, for a balanced view, I would encourage anyone to read the latter if they have read the former.

I have been meaning too, a friend who is just about to finish a Divinity Masters has promised me the loan of his copy after his exams!

quote:

catholic contraceptive devices

Good oxymoron David!

Dom
Such a shame then that this compassionate church is lying to people in Africa telling them condoms don't work as a barrier to AIDS.

If that is happening, and I don't doubt that some overzealous preachers come out with such nonsense, it's not something I would condone. Nor do I think that the Church itself condones people telling blatant falsehoods any more than it encourages them to petrol bomb abortion clinics. You get nut jobs who attach themselves to every organization, your failure to make this separation is much like the "all Muslims are terrorists" nonsense. You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

There was a documentary about on C4 (IMSMC) which I watched recently.
It reported there was & is a widespread conspiracy to spread misinformation in Africa about AIDS/condoms by the Catholic Church.

This goes to the top of the Catholic Church in Africa,
& the Vatican has taken no action.
The evidence was damning IMHO,
& certainly isn't "some overzealous preachers".

Oh, so C4 have got bored of trying to disprove global warming with unbalanced and very selectively edited documentaries, and moved onto the Catholic Church have they? It wouldn't surprise me that much if this misinformation was widespread in the African Church, ideas move about in any community, but a conspiracy? I suppose the CIA orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?

Dom
step back. You start by saying if this is happening so revealing you know nothing about it, then you speak as if you are an authority on a channel 4 documentary you haven't seen.
Go away.
Do some research.
Come back to discuss from a base of informed opinion.

start here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7014335.stm
or here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids
or are the BBC and the Guardian part of the conspiracy too?

Like all Public Service Broadcasters in the UK, C4 have a duty of balance in reporting.
I saw the global warming doc'; what I took away is GW is happening, but the doubters point that it's unproven human activity is the cause is true, however unhelpful it might be in dealing with climate change. I disagree either doc' was selectively edited, & I speak as a one time TV editor. When people don't like what they hear or read they claim it's biased &/or untrue.

For example the BBC receives a similar number of complaints from Conservatives & Labour,
both claiming it has a bias in favour of the other.

I appreciate it is unpalatable Dom, but a conspiracy is (amongst other things) when a coordinated group work together to commit wrongful or illegal actions.
That's what happened in the African CC re: spreading Condoms/AIDS misinformation,
& the Vatican has effectively done nowt.

I doubt you think the CIA orchestrated the 9/11 attacks any more than I do,
but the relationship between the USA government & The House of Saud over the decades
is not what it seems at a glance.

Bob,

Am I ignorant because I differentiate between doctrinal hardliners and the vast majority of ordinary rational Catholics, and I take everything I read or see with a certain degree of cynicism? Not least sensationalist documentaries and the reporting of a left wing paper on religion.

I must admit that I have not devoted a lot of time to this specific issue, but I am well versed on the larger debate surrounding the Church, HIV and condoms. As someone who has studied Politics, Philosophy and Religion at a University level and indeed the somewhat murky ground between them I feel I am at least as qualified to comment in an internet forum, as anyone who is likely to not consider using their intellect in such a way a complete waste of time. I happen to have a very high opinion of a lot of people on this forum, although sometimes the prevalence of citing the interpretation of media outlets as solid and unbiased fact makes me cringe.

It is interesting that the Guardian article tries to cite this as the official position of the Holy See, yet the statements of the Pontifical Council, which set out the official position of the Church merely note that they cannot morally support the promotion of the use of condoms, and that they feel that it is effectively a patch that does not address the real problem of promiscuity. It isn't a position I agree with, but nor is it the Church telling people to sleep around without condoms.

I honestly feel that the reporting is selective, my Chaplain at the University quite openly said that we should use condoms IF we had sex outside marriage. He had worked as a missionary in Africa, and said that that sort of thinking was prevalent amongst most younger western Priests. The lesser of two evils as it were, or the lesser harm.

I do not honestly believe that there is some sort of conspiracy on the part of the Church? Nor do I think that the media is conspiring against the Church, although I do think that their reporting is very subjective, and often lacks a wider understanding. I am also of the opinion that C4 often runs documentaries based on the fact that controversy surrounding respected institutions or even established fact is good for ratings.

I also think that the way the Guardian article is written, and indeed some of your own comments on this thread show a profound ignorance of the way the Church works. The BBC are somewhat fairer, rightly attributing the view expressed to a single Archbishop, and not once implying that it is a universal view within the Church.

Regards,


Dom

quote:

You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

Hmmm. That'll be the ones who actually write and preach the policies then.

quote:

the official position of the Church merely note that they cannot morally support the promotion of the use of condoms

This religious dogma results in AIDs & other STDs being spread,
causing massive suffering.

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

quote:

You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

No on their choice of religion,if indeed they ever made a choice!

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
... Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

[I] read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!

Regards, Dom

Agreed on both points. And the part before was abreath of sane fresh air.

George

quote:

I appreciate it is unpalatable Dom, but a conspiracy is (amongst other things) when a coordinated group work together to commit wrongful or illegal actions.
That's what happened in the African CC re: spreading Condoms/AIDS misinformation,
& the Vatican has effectively done nowt.

I would disagree that there is any evidence of a co-ordinated attempt to spread misinformation. Those who are spreading misinformation seem quite convinced of the veracity of what they are saying. Even if there is such an intentional campaign of misinformation, it is not the official line of the Church, and although some individuals within the Church could be said to be conspiring I still think it is wrong to point the finger of blame at the Church itself, much as it is unfair to blame Islam for the conspiring of the various disparate radical elements that seem to have united under the banner of Al Qeada.

That The Holy See hasn't done something to real them in and rectify the wrong, is something that upsets me, and I very sincerely hope that they will.

quote:

This religious dogma results in AIDs & other STDs being spread,
causing massive suffering.

Well, if people actually were following the dogma it wouldn't be at all, the line is as it has been for most of the past 2000 years 'only have sex within a monogamous marriage'. The whole condom thing is something of a sideline. I cannot for the life of me understand how someone could come to the conclusion that it is fine to break the 7th Commandment, but not to break another, much less prominent rule whilst doing so. The Holy See's position on condoms is not subject to an Infallible Declaration, so the position is effectively a legal opinion, not necessarily a statement of fact, it is still very much open to debate.

quote:

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

I don't even know where to start with what is wrong with that question. Sufficed to say if Jesus was on Earth the theologians could stop pontificating and just ask what the Church is supposed to be doing.

quote:

No on their choice of religion,if indeed they ever made a choice!

Always a pleasure to meet tolerant people.

quote:

a breath of sane fresh air

As are you very frequently George!


Regards all,


Dom

Whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. Many spiritually-minded persons demostrate a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which shouldn't be dismissed because of sometimes justifiable prejudice against organised religion.

Then we disagree Dom, because I see much credible evidence.
The root of Al Qaeda is in Islam & it is a form of religious extremism.
The AIDS/condom misinformation conspiracy in Africa was within the CC & borne of extremism, but the difference is it was within the church & no action from H.Q.
Mainstream Islam rejects extremism a la Al Qaeda.

My issue isn't with mainstream Islam any more than the CC,
it's with religious extremism & all the dreadful acts conducted in the name of /under the shield of religions. For example the Paedophile scandal & cover-up in the Catholic Church in The U.S.A.

I think you've missed the point re: the AIDS/Condom misinformation CC conspiracy in Africa.
The lies about condoms communicated by the CC in Africa have resulted in many AIDS infections & deaths. That people do/don't follow CC dogma or 'Commandments' is irrelevant.

The only wrong question is one you already know the answer to.
My point is the CC, like most Christian sects, don't appear to follow Christ's teachings.
For example the CC is vastly wealthy, so why not use that wealth to alleviate poverty & hunger? If big J was amongst us do you think he would praise the actions of the CC?

quote:

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

Presumably he would still be a Jew and wondering where the hell this Christianity thing sprang up from.

After reading the Amazon reviews of the Dawkin delusion I don't think I'll bother with it.

Or put another way..
I'm an athiest, it does not matter if you can show me that my position is wrong. I'm not going to believe you! Sound familiar ?

quote:

The root of Al Qaeda is in Islam & it is a form of religious extremism.

I would profoundly disagree, Al Qaeda is a political movement, which just so happens to use Islamic language when it suits it. It is really a reaction to poverty, the lack of power and influence Middle Eastern states have, and the continued influence and interference of the former imperial powers. Islam just happens to be a useful banner as the states in the Middle East have little else in common.

quote:

religious extremism & all the dreadful acts conducted in the name of /under the shield of religions

Well then I think to be perfectly honest we have been getting too tied up with specifics. I would absolutely agree with you. I am by no means defending those who take such ridiculous positions, or indeed the inaction (to date) of The Holy See, and I sincerely hope something will be done about it.

quote:

For example the CC is vastly wealthy, so why not use that wealth to alleviate poverty & hunger?

I would contend that it does, it is a frequent criticism that the Church has too much money, but the vast majority of the wealth of the Church is property, and the vast majority of that property is in use, they are not merely hording it. The Church is the largest not-for-profit organization in the world. Because of the complexity of the various agencies within the Church it is hard to come up with an accurate total for the amount of Aid given out by the Church each year, it certainly runs into billions. Also the Church has been very effective at recruiting people to carry out Aid work in the 3rd world. Without the buildings, infrastructure and administration the wealth of the Church supports this simply couldn't happen. A Parish Priest in Britain gets a salary of less than £4k a year, hardly a bunch of men in dog-collars rolling in a pile of gold.

quote:

I'm an athiest, it does not matter if you can show me that my position is wrong. I'm not going to believe you! Sound familiar ?

Well it was only a certain amount of time until the religion of Atheism got it's own fundamentalists!

quote:

Al Qaeda is a political movement, which just so happens to use Islamic language when it suits it.

The line between politics, state & religion blur in almost all societies. Similarly almost all religions are political in that they are politically active & have political allegiances & goals.
Al Qaeda is the name given to an international alliance of militant Sunni Islamist terrorist organisations established in 1988 by Osama bin Laden. It is a religious organisation with a political agenda. I think we agree terrorism is caused by injustice, whether real or perceived.

quote:

Well then I think to be perfectly honest we have been getting too tied up with specifics.

I think the specifics are very important, & especially so to the victims.
As you are affiliated to the organisation which is the root of the problem I sincerely hope you will do more than hope The Holy See will do something about it.

quote:

I would contend that it does, it is a frequent criticism that the Church has too much money, but the vast majority of the wealth of the Church is property, and the vast majority of that property is in use, they are not merely hording it. The Church is the largest not-for-profit organisation in the world. A Parish Priest in Britain gets a salary of less than £4k a year, hardly a bunch of men in dog-collars rolling in a pile of gold.

I don't know what too much money means, but the wealth is indeed vast so sell the property! I'm not claiming the various Christian Churches do no good work,
just pointing out the hypocrisy & damage.

quote:

... it is hard to come up with an accurate total for the amount of Aid given out by the Church each year, it certainly runs into billions.

Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

quote:

Also the Church has been very effective at recruiting people to carry out Aid work in the 3rd world.

Recruit or indoctrinate?
I basically believe we should all be tolerant & respectful of one another,
but when religion goes bad it has to be challenged.

Dear All,

If Jesus returned to Earth i believe that he would STILL BE A JEW.

regards David

quote:

The line between politics, state & religion blur in almost all societies.

Absolutely, but in the case of Al Qaeda where a lot of their behaviour is at odds with the teachings of The Holy Qur'an I think it is very misleading to say Islam is the root; which was the wording you used.

quote:

As you are affiliated to the organisation which is the root of the problem I sincerely hope you will do more than hope The Holy See will do something about it.

I don't know exactly what you expect me to do. As I pointed out earlier I am far from being a "good Catholic" indeed the last time I was in a Church was at a funeral two months ago. I certainly do not have any influence over The Holy See!

quote:

but the wealth is indeed vast so sell the property!

Sell the Churches that people attend, and often form the hub of the community? Not to mention that it is usually the local Catholic community who raised the money to construct and maintain the Churches in the first place. Also who would want to buy Churches?

quote:

Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

I don't know to be perfectly honest, but it is certainly a very high percentage of the turnover. My mother is the treasurer of our parish, and around 80% of the parish's fund raising goes directly to charities. Admittedly this is a reasonably wealthy parish (or rather a parish with quite a high proportion of wealthy parishioners), so the proportion may be somewhat higher than you might find elsewhere.

quote:

Recruit or indoctrinate?

I suppose you could call it whatever you like. The fact remains that volunteers working with agencies like CAFOD are in deprived areas digging wells and building schools, I don't see how that is a bad thing.

quote:

If Jesus returned to Earth i believe that he would STILL BE A JEW.

Noted David, I suppose he would, under Jewish law he can't cease to be one!

Regards,


Dom

quote:

Absolutely, but in the case of Al Qaeda where a lot of their behavior is at odds with the teachings of The Holy Qur'an I think it is very misleading to say Islam is the root; which was the wording you used.

Al Qaeda is an Islamic religious group. Of course their behavior is at odds with the teachings of mainstream Islam.
Equally the actions of the Catholic Church members involved in the AIDS/Condoms misinformation conspiracy, & those involved in the sexual abuse scandal & cover up are at odds with the teachings of Christ. But these things happened & the root of these problems is religious extremism, so ultimately it is a problem bourne of religion IMO.

quote:

I don't know exactly what you expect me to do.

I think that is something for your conscience to work out.

quote:

Sell the Churches that people attend, and often form the hub of the community? Not to mention that it is usually the local Catholic community who raised the money to construct and maintain the Churches in the first place. Also who would want to buy Churches?

Come on Dom; the CC owns more than a few churches!
Churches get snapped up very quickly by property developers in my local property market.

quote:

I don't know to be perfectly honest, but it is certainly a very high percentage of the turnover. My mother is the treasurer of our parish, and around 80% of the parish's fund raising goes directly to charities. Admittedly this is a reasonably wealthy parish (or rather a parish with quite a high proportion of wealthy parishioners), so the proportion may be somewhat higher than you might find elsewhere. [QUOTE] Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

How many billions are there in the Vatican back A/Cs?
The CC in America were able to pay out $615 million dollars last year to victims of their pedophile priests.

quote:

Recruit or indoctrinate?

quote:

I suppose you could call it whatever you like.

I'll call it self perpetuating brainwashing then!

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
...the actions of the Catholic Church members involved in the AIDS/Condoms misinformation conspiracy ... are at odds with the teachings of Christ.

That very bold bit of polemic needs a bit of unpacking, I'd say.

I am always fascinated by the depth and sophistication of the theological understanding of Christian teaching exhibited by those seeking to put the boot into it, rarely from an unprejudiced standpoint!

The panacea of Condoms is no more the ultimate logical solution to the spread of AIDS and other awful (anti)social diseases than is limiting the number of children to Developing Nations families the ultimate logical solution to world population growth.

Ultimately, they are matters of human beahviour ('ours' as well as 'theirs') and world economics ('our' effect on 'theirs').

The fact is that Condoms are of little interest to those - both in the Developed and Developing Nations - who choose to behave, personally, in a grossly irresponsible, promiscuous and sometimes/frequently abusive way. Where Condoms are readily available, such as in our own 'sophisticated' Land, the rate of Condom use by the so-called 'high risk' groups is plummeting, with a proportionate rise in infections and young teenage pregnancy.

And as for the world population explosion, perhaps if the Developed Nations cut a proper and fair deal for the Developing Nations there wouldn't be the need for them to have 15 children per couple in case 14 of them die.

Ultimately, these are questions of personal and social responsibility, not saying it is alright to behave irresponsibly because we've got a bit of magic rubber to patch it up (oops I forgot).