Horror of horrors and catholic contraceptive devices

Unpack to your hearts content JWM!

It is a fact that use of a condom reduces the transmission of STDs including HIV.
Those members of the CC in Africa that conspired to misinform people of the facts regarding condoms resulted in many people contracting HIV. Apart from the lies I would think that the resulting death & suffering goes against the teachings of Christian Churches inc' the CC.

I agree there are issues of personal and social responsibility.
It may be a fact that condoms are of little interest to those who choose to behave irresponsibly, but that begins with education, which is the opposite of the CCs actions in Africa.

I believe the increases in STDs in the UK correlates with a failure in both parental & institutional education. The fact is people are going to have sex (it is nature!), so is it not best to be pragmatic & inform them of the facts?

quote:

But these things happened & the root of these problems is religious extremism, so ultimately it is a problem bourne of religion IMO.

555 - this is the non-sequitur at the root of your position. The problem is extremism, not religion per se.

What do you believe in? The free market? Science? Think about when these ideas have been taken to extremes (e.g. Bhopal, The Tuskegee Experiments), and ask yourself whether you would to tar all practitioners with the same brush. Seen in this light, Dom's position appears entirely reasonable to me.

EDIT: Just spotted your post about music and wine - would you judge all drinkers by the actions of the few who become violent under the influence - ultimately, it is a problem caused by drink, after all.

Regards
Nigel

The issues I have been commenting on do follow from both religion & religious extremism.
For example The Catholic Church sex abuse scandal & cover up in the USA isn't related to extremism, religious or otherwise is it Nigel?

I believe in things like tolerance, love, peace, family, friendship;
things which don't get taken to damaging extremes.
I hadn't consciously thought about it before,
but I guess that's the reason I believe in those things; what do you believe in Nigel?

I think Doms position has become more reasonable, but his early posts in this thread suggested he was unaware of the activities of the Catholic Church & their consequences.

I would challenge someone claiming 'all forms of drink are fine."
Equally I challenge the various religions due to the problems & suffering caused by them.

Are violent drunks a problem caused by drink, lack of education or both?
FYI I think it's both, but education is probably more significant.

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The Catholic Church sex abuse scandal & cover up in the USA isn't related to extremism, religious or otherwise is it Nigel?

Nor is it in any way related to the Catholic faith, any more than propagating nonsense without any scientific or theological basis is. My issue is with the way you fail to make any separation between the religion and the activities of certain individuals within that religion.

I think Nigel has a very valid point; should I consider that as Hitler was a vegetarian then vegetarianism was responsible for the Holocaust? Or that the activities of some Rangers fans in Manchester yesterday has something to do with them being Scottish?

555, I don't really have an axe to grind, but my observation, based on the exchanges between you and Dom on this thread, is that you come across as the more dogmatic and inflexible participant. No offence (seriously). EDIT: maybe there has been a rapprochement, of late!

For the record, I am not a Catholic, and condemn the practices you highlight. I might own up to being a Buddhist, if pressed, but the truth is I don't find such labels terribly helpful.

By the by, Buddhism is often regarded as the cuddliest of religions (even Dawkins grants it an early pardon in "The God Delusion") yet the sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway were executed by a group of extreme, fundamentalist Buddhists. Again, I see this as caused by extremism, not Buddhism, per se.

I think that almost any idea can be twisted into an idol, to which we are prepared to sacrifice everything that makes us human. The only possible exception - which you mention - is tolerance, but I would prefer to substitute something more active such as the Buddhist notion of "compassion", or Christianity's "agape". The other ideas you mention - love, family, friendship, I'm not so sure about - romantic love gets twisted into all kinds of odd shapes, no?

On that bombshell, I send both you and Dom my regards!

Nigel

quote:

Nor is it in any way related to the Catholic faith ... My issue is with the way you fail to make any separation between the religion and the activities of certain individuals within that religion. I think Nigel has a very valid point; should I consider that as Hitler was a vegetarian then vegetarianism was responsible for the Holocaust? Or that the activities of some Rangers fans in Manchester yesterday has something to do with them being Scottish?

Dom

I don't think I have suggested the child abuse scandal or cover-up is related to the Catholic faith per se, but that it came from within the organisation. The fact that there was large-scale child abuse occurring in the CC, & then it was covered-up by senior figures suggests to me there is a systematic problem.

However the AIDS/Condom mis-information conspiracy in Africa is different;
it occured as part of the CC faith,
albeit an extemist form.

I accept there is separation, but equally you need to see the connections.
We are not talking about a small number of individuals re: either subjects.
If Hitler did what he did in the name of vegetarianism then yes, but he didn't.
Suggesting fatuous correlations doesn't change anything.

Nigel
I can't really disagree with anything you say!