HDX as a CD player.

Apparently not. The drive in the hdx was chosen for its capabilities of being able to run at several different speeds in order to obtain the perfect rip. Its sonic abilities are secondary. That's not to say it will sound awful, just not as good as a cdx2.

...assuming you play it back in real time–if it is streaming from hard disk instead, the quality of the drive is less of an issue until an error occurs.

So, might there be an HDS coming, with better replay?

Neil

dD,

Speaking of the error-correction in the HDX. I am curious by which method this is done.

Does the HDX perform a "Test & Copy" rip method so it can perform the CRC checks? meaning, it reads the track entirely (test), then rips it. When it rips it, in the 2nd pass, if error correction CANNOT get past something, it tags a "log file" letting you know it was not a "perfect" rip, and where the error occurred?

I have had to rerip discs before. Sometimes there might be a little smudge on the disc. And sometimes computers are just computers....

Also, hopefully it is not using a cache.


Regarding the HDX's DAC, can elaborate a little on its specs. How is the USB converted? SPDIF? I2S? If using the internal HD, how is the data sent to the DAC?

As this DAC obviously excels at HD based music replay, could it be "extracted" and used in an external product at some point?

Lastly, how many external USB drives can be connected to the HDX?

thanks for the help Dave,
-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by Keith L:
Apparently not. The drive in the hdx was chosen for its capabilities of being able to run at several different speeds in order to obtain the perfect rip. Its sonic abilities are secondary. That's not to say it will sound awful, just not as good as a cdx2.

er... no.

Sonic abilities are the primary reasons for opting for an HDX. So far sound quality is in many respects better than the CDX2 and we're still not through the final tweaking yet.

I'll let the Naimnet techs answer Patrick's questions...

Actually, Patrick, you should read the HDX white papers:

Naim HDX Hard Disk Player.pdf (205 KB)

Naim CD Ripping Engine.pdf (88KB)

Naim Extended Music Database.pdf (171KB)

Naim Hard Disk Thermal Analysis.pdf (422KB)

as these will give you a better idea as to what's going on inside.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:

quote:

Originally posted by Keith L:
Apparently not. The drive in the hdx was chosen for its capabilities of being able to run at several different speeds in order to obtain the perfect rip. Its sonic abilities are secondary. That's not to say it will sound awful, just not as good as a cdx2.

er... no.

Sonic abilities are the primary reasons for opting for an HDX. So far sound quality is in many respects better than the CDX2 and we're still not through the final tweaking yet.

I'll let the Naimnet techs answer Patrick's questions...

I think you completely misread the question. CD playback without ripping to hard disc is not to the level of cdx2.

quote:

I think you completely misread the question. CD playback without ripping to hard disc is not to the level of cdx2.

...or perhaps you missed a trick somewhere!

Keith, I dont think he misread your question. I believe he simply disagreed.

He think IT IS on par with the CDX2.

Also, I didn't think there was taditional "CD Playback" without ripping the disc. I was led to believe that the HDX ALWAYS plays from the HD.

Even in "play the cd" mode. It first starts ripping it to the hard drive, before it starts playing. I can imagine there is a small lag between pressing "play" and hearing music. The only difference there is that it DOES NOT save a copy of the disc.

And if there is ANY significant error correction, I would expect this gap to be as long as the first song. Without testing the track first then copying it, there is no way to know if you have errors.

Dave,
I have read the white papers.

There is not much detail on the DAC, or the USB conversion.

Also, it does not mention test and copy method.

Although outside of that it seems the method of ripping is fairly close to my efforts.

I am very pleased to see no use of caching, or burst modes. Secure w/C2 correction very nice.

FYI, none of the Naim Ripping process is exclusive to Naim, and can be easily achieved using a properly set-up (and free) Exact Audio Copy program.

I am curious if the following are achieved in the ripping process:

- A Log File (showing where errors occur if any)
- A Cue File (to reconstruct the Original disc if needed) Imagine being able to press your own piece of vinyl when your original is scratched.
- Test and Copy.
- Can it flag CDs with pre-emphasis, and play them back accordingly?

quote:

Can it flag CDs with pre-emphasis, and play them back accordingly?

If you actually own Compact Discs with pre-emphasis in the PQ subcode that are still playable, you are doing better than most! (For what it's worth, most CDs with preemph sound like crap anyway, and ought to be replaced with more recent re-masters.) On older Naim CD players, de-emphasis was executed in hardware, the data bits remaining the same–I have no idea whether anyone cared to bother in 2008 (having thrown any discs I owned with preemph out).

Test and Copy initialization by end user is not required with the supplied drive firmware (make the product work for you, not other way around).

There is no USB conversion (see white paper)–streaming via PCI bridge chips on custom card. DAC and re-clocking similar to SUPERNAIT / DVD5 etc. (really oversimplifying this here)

Error tally is visible to end user via web interface and Desktop Client; system ripping service generates log file on internal drive, not accessible to end user (why necessary?).

Lastly–I can't imagine NOT ripping the disc to drive while playing and keeping it; funny, iTunes defaults to this same setting (play disc while ripping).

It is, after all, a Hard Disk Player.

quote:

Lastly–I can't imagine NOT ripping the disc to drive while playing and keeping it; funny, iTunes defaults to this same setting (play disc while ripping).

Your 8 year old daughter wants you to listen to her latest fav track. Why the feck would I want that on my HD? (I know it's unlikely an 8 year old would know what a cd is).

At Billy Vee's Naim day last Saturday, I was told the HDX is capable of direct cd playback without ripping. Was I misinformed by the man from Salisbury?

Keith,you were not misinformed.

Dear PC

"I have read the white papers.

FYI, none of the Naim Ripping process is exclusive to Naim, and can be easily achieved using a properly set-up (and free) Exact Audio Copy program."

our mech is truly 1st class for ripping and this can often be the difference, I will post some graphs shortly showing some differences we found with different mechs so... eac may be fine infact one of the best but if your mech is rubbish you will have sound issues with your copy unlike our machines.

"I am curious if the following are achieved in the ripping process:

- A Log File (showing where errors occur if any)" YES in our desk top client

"- A Cue File (to reconstruct the Original disc if needed) Imagine being able to press your own piece of vinyl when your original is scratched.-"
No sorry this would bring some legal issues with copying

"- Can it flag CDs with pre-emphasis, and play them back accord-" No sorry we do not do that

hope this helps, Sorry the above is a mess I am rushing around today. Paul


http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/index.php/other-projects/dae-quality

Keith,

Just to expand on Paul's reply. If the HDX is in "play disc" mode then it will effectively play a disc put in the drawer just like a CD player. I say effectively, because in actuality it rips the disc to the hard drive and begins playback from the hard drive almost simultaneously. As soon as the disc is ejected the "rip" is removed.

This means that when in "play disc" mode, the HDX will not leave a rip of the CD on the hard drive.

Thanks for clarifying Richard. This is what I was told by Dave Dever as well. Interesting that Naim chose to go in the direction given the above comments from Paul with the incorporated ripping device. I guess the thought must be:
1. ease of use for most individuals since no "setup" to ensure proper ripping is required.
2. direct ripping into the HD without the need for a PC/NAS at least until the HDD is filled. Same reasons as #1 above.
3. CD playback incorporated for those may want to use this in addition to the features of direct ripping. Great if you don't own a Naim CDP or were thinking of upgrading into the CDX2 category.
4. Upgrade with PS

So really Naim developed a device to accomplish several tasks at once, ripping/storage, CD playback, ability to playback 24/96 files, PS upgrade. It's an interesting concept, and the ease of use and CD playback have to have been real issues considered in the development process since from what's been stated the same could have been achieved with an upgradeable stand alone dac, "Naim software" downloaded to your PC/MAC for ripping (like EAC)and connection to a mirrored NAS with backup. I'm not sure why they chose this since it does lead to potential service issues with the HDD mechanism itself as well as, the storage drives which would not have been necessary if this was kept in your PC and direct playback from your own CDP. Thus no moving parts to consider. I'm sure Naim looked at all of these issues before making a final determination about the product.

It brings a few observations to mind:
1. Is the "CD playback" equal in quality to the HDX playback of the same ripped file or is there a difference since the HDX is playing CD's on "the fly" without the same ability for full reading and error correction as would be achieved with a fully ripped file.
2. IMO it really questions whether Naim will develop a stand alone DAC and if so where would it be priced and would it be upgradeable. I would think that many people who would buy an HDx will be very upset if a product is released with the same playback quality as the HDX and can be PS upgraded for the price of an NS01 (box minus CD ripper/player)especially if you consider that the HDX is supposed to be in between the CDX2 and CDS3. The NS01 is already there except for PS upgrade and reports are playback between CD5x and CDX2. It would really mean that a stand alone would need to be more like an "HD5x" and possibly upgradeable with FC/HC/possibly SC and achieve playback on the level of a CD5x-->CDX2 (see above NS01 comments) or an "HD5i" which would be somewhat limiting for someone wanting a better quality playback. The final issue would be if they incorporated an A/D converter into the DAC so you could convert your vinyl. Again where would pricing and practicality meet for the Naim customer.

Paul, Dave, Richard,

Thanks for the time.

Dave,
Oddly enough I have a fair amount of CDs with pre-emp, and yes some are almost 20 years old. It is one of the reasons i started proper rips to FLAC over a year ago. Many of the "superior" IMHO, pressings of some very good albums came out of Japan with Pre-emph.

For example, Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, from Japan's Toshiba-Black Triangle, is by FAR the best pressing. Same goes for their Abbey Road pressing. It is simply gorgeous. Similar for Thriller, the original Black Sabbath, They Might Be Giants, Genesis-Genesis (better than the Barry Diamente master), Paul McCartney.... and on and on.

And one of my absolute favorite Mahler symphony collection (Inbal) from Denon.

There is a VERY EASY solution for playback of these albums correctly. Foobar2000 has a work-around using its equalizer. I have it set as a "template" I load when playing one of these albums. Perhaps something similar could be considered in a HDX "update".

And YES they will sound like shit if played on a CDP, or media player, that cannot read the flags. It will be "hissy" and overly bright. I can only imagine that the ones you have heard were played on a CDP that couldn't decode it.


Paul,
Excellent info. I have no doubts that your drive is top notch. Glad you have a log file... really nice.


Richard,
So.... Keith WAS in fact misformed, or misunderstood....
The HDX does not play directly from the disc ever. It is always playing the "ripped" music from a hard drive. Although it wont save the rip, it is ripping the music and playing that.



thanks
patrick

Dave,

Regarding the USB "conversion" or lack thereof.

Can you describe how the HDX would work for me if I never planned on using the internal HDs.
Let's assume I have three 1TB external USB or E-SATA hard drives. And for fun, lets assume I have no other CDs ever to rip.

How exactly would I connect the HDs to the HDX?
How is the USB input handled?
What is the digital output intended for on the HDX?
What are the inputs on the HDX besides ethernet, and USB?
Can I use the HDX to play music from Foobar on my PC, via the USB?



Thanks for helping me. I have been VERY skeptical about the HDX, but I am not going to give up on it yet.

The ripping process is as close to perfect as I demand. Although I still have a major issue with not ripping to FLAC.

The playback SQ must be amazing.

But at $10K it would have to be virtually ideal for me. For those with unlimited budgets and no desire to fiddle with PCs, the HDX is going to be the best thing ever. But there is a HUGE market of people who cannot, or will not afford a box that expensive, ever in their lives.

Entry level, "affordable" boxes have always been present in the Naim line. And in some cases are preferred to "better" Naim pieces, even when price is not an object. The person who, at this time, can only afford Nait 5i and CD5i is not going to be able to buy an HDX.

And for those people to not be able to use HD based music in an All Naim system is a shame.

To imply that the ONLY way to do it properly is to save up the down payment for a house, and buy an HDX, is short-sighted.

While the CD555 has by far the best performance, you are not keeping CD playback from the masses due to not making compromises in a cheaper design. In fact you do it four times to bring Naim quality CD replay to the person with a sub $2000 budget.

My new slogan will be "Extract-the-DAC"


thanks!
patrick

Sorry about the confusion regarding cd playback,unfortunately Richard has got this wrong,in cd mode the hdx does NOT ripp to the hard disk but to memory and replays from there therefore when you remove the disc nothing has been stored.

Gary
The hdx concept is pure and wonderfully simple a fully integrated solution offering naim quality performance which will sit happily into any of our hifi systems easily and can be further upgraded with power supplies etc.
We chose this since it does not lead to potential poor third party service issues with the HDD mechanisms, and storage which might be kept in some crummy pc with below par mechs for ripping and maybe without secure back up.
Many of our customers are music loving, hifi enthusiasts who would almost never think about spending valuable time setting up drives, interfaces, nas storage, wireless connections and the hdx will be heaven for them.
Sure there are other ways to achieve moving files around and there are many pitfalls also, I guess its up to the individual to decide whats best for them.

Patrick, we started with our most expensive amp in 1973 and a decade later introduced the nait,we always try to consider entry level products we have not changed our stance on this.I am not saying the hdx is the only way to go,some of my friends use a squeeze box and some have very complex file sharing systems around the home but none of them sound as good as the hdx. You just have to decide on the quality of the replay you are happy with.

Looking forward to seeing this unit at PJ hi-fi on the 18th for the Summer Sounds event

James

Paul, I agree with your comments and that is what my hypothesis was behind my initial comments.

If you have a chance could you address two questions regarding "CD playback."

1.If the HDX rips to memory, is there any delay between "play" and "music replay?"

2.Since the HDX is doing something different for "immediate playback" vs. "file ripping and playback" is there a difference in musical presentation since "from memory" would imply that the HDX has not had the opportunity to perform error correction etc.. as it does when the file is initially ripped and stored either in the HDD or eventual PC/NAS?

Gary

I had the opportunity to hear the HDX at the Tomtom Audio SummerSounds event yesterday and it's an impressive-sounding machine, even running "bare", ie. without the addition of an external PSU.

I can also confirm the situation re using the machine like a conventional CD player - according to Mark Raggett who ran the demonstration yesterday, the HDX rips the CD to an internal buffer and plays the information stored in that buffer. This means that it does not benefit from any of the error correction employed when ripping to the internal hard drive so playback quality is therefore compromised.

One other thing: there was a second HDX on "static" display yesterday for those of us who wanted to try out the touch-screen display and what I noticed most about it is that it runs really warm. I talked to Steve the designer and he said there are two computers running inside it (the touch-screen part is a computer all by itself!) so yes it will tend to run quite warm so that if you're going to put it in a rack of Fraim, and not at the top, be careful to ensure it gets the ventilation it needs.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Paul, I agree with your comments and that is what my hypothesis was behind my initial comments.

If you have a chance could you address two questions regarding "CD playback."

1.If the HDX rips to memory, is there any delay between "play" and "music replay?"

2.Since the HDX is doing something different for "immediate playback" vs. "file ripping and playback" is there a difference in musical presentation since "from memory" would imply that the HDX has not had the opportunity to perform error correction etc.. as it does when the file is initially ripped and stored either in the HDD or eventual PC/NAS?

Gary

My questions exactly...... would love to know the answer to this one

quote:

This means that it does not benefit from any of the error correction employed when ripping to the internal hard drive so playback quality is therefore compromised.

Does error correction produce better sounding replay? I think its role is to check if there's a problem with the rip by trying to ensure all the ones and zeros are present, not how they sound. 99.9% of rips of clean cds don't need any error correction whatsoever.

Hi GARY
Sorry in a rush again about to leave for atrip, I asked Phil from naim to answer your questions for me, here they are
best
Paul


Paul, I agree with your comments and that is what my hypothesis was behind my initial comments.

If you have a chance could you address two questions regarding "CD playback."

1.If the HDX rips to memory, is there any delay between "play" and "music replay?"

<< In absolute terms yes, there will be a small delay between hitting "Play" and music replay starting however in practice the delay is so small as to be completely unnoticeable ... see my next comment for further details. >>

2.Since the HDX is doing something different for "immediate playback" vs. "file ripping and playback" is there a difference in musical presentation since "from memory" would imply that the HDX has not had the opportunity to perform error correction etc.. as it does when the file is initially ripped and stored either in the HDD or eventual PC/NAS?

<< The HDX actually does exactly the same process whether it is reading a CD for ripping to storage or for playing it back - it is just the destination for the data that changes. In both instances we read the CD at a greater rate than the playback speed and so even when playing back in real time we very quickly read ahead and within seconds build up a substantial buffer of secure ripped data that has been read in exactly the same way as it would be if we were reading to rip - as soon as data is read from the drive it can be played. The result of this is that response to transport commands (play, pause, next and previous track etc.) is just what you would expect from a normal CD player with no noticeable delays whilst buffers are pre-filled or anything like that. >>