Can drums convey emotion?

You can tune drums, I remember seeing but not who it was , playing like a bass riff on a set of drums.

Bill Bruford tunes his snare to a specific note, I can't remember what it is.

He also played tunes on his electronic kit in the 80's with Earthworks. It was interesting, but not emotional, and not as good as hearing him on an acoustic kit.

They can if it's you in the pot!

Just listen to Brubecks 'Take Five' on a good system. The drums are amazing.

Or Danny Carey (Tool) playing tabla rhythms inside his normal drum beats. Technically amazing and also very emotional.

Ryan

They certainly do on this disc

Danny Carey with Tool was one I thought about,'Disposition' from 'Lateralus' would certainly be a candidate.

I had not really considered classical drumming, but certainly the booming bass drum in Vaughan Williams Pastoral (3rd) symphony is emotional. The Pastoral symphony is not a country scene, but the fields of Flanders where so many lost their lives in WW1, and the drums are reminiscent of the guns.

I do think the drums in 'Take Five' are amazing, but I do not find them emotional. Brilliant, clever, skilled, yes. Happy, sad, frightening, no. But as I said it is objective.

Terry Bozzio tunes his drums very precisely to match the key of the composition, much like and orchestral tympanist. I think he has a uniquely musical approach to drumming.

Then there's Keith Moon whose style was described as "lead drums" which I thought very appropriate and damn funny. I always found his and Bonzo's style, though very different, absolutely musical and much more than just percussion and tempo.

Extending it to drum kit, ie: cymbal, etc.

In 1998, I sat in the front row of a show with Ben Riley on drums. He often played with Monk, and this night was with Ben Drummond and Kenny Barron. I swear BR could have played an entire song on a cymbal ! His use of a very small kit produced an amazing variety of sounds.

Jeff A

bonhams drumming on: in my time of dying does it for me.

If it were possible, i would love to hear Evelyn Glennies input on this subject.

I have a long-standing love-hate relationship with drums. A good drummer can bring bliss to a band, a poor one reduces you to battling with the rhythm against a re-run of the battle of Jutland.
Interestingly I have run a jazz trio for many years which does not include drums, partly because as a guitarist I am already perhaps a frustrated drummer, and partly because there are very few appropriate drummers in this part of the world.
Most drummers, in my experience, IMHO, like to be too busy for cocktain jazz. The great jazzers of course are subtle, just covering generally the higher end of the spectrum, with measured use of the bass. Their fill-ins are spontaneous and original.

I am of a generation who were inspired by the Beatles, Stones, (and initially Lonnie Donnegan) to start little bands in just about every other garage in the neighbourhood. Sadly the roll of drummer usually fell to the lad who was least musical, because to be a star drummer did not require a knowledge of chords or keys. (Bass players were next in this inverted hierarchy - they were the guitarists with the less agile fingers). Which is sad because I regard the drums as the hardest instrument, simply because for the very reason that to impart emotion and lift a band, you have little in the range of pitch variation to call on. It must all be done rhythmically. And when done well it is magic.

Just some idle thoughts from sunny downtown York on a Thursday lunchtime

don

I don't know if a drummer could make you feel sad or bemused, but rhythm carries an emotional content.

So, yes, drummers convey emotions.

quote:

Originally posted by scottyhammer:
bonhams drumming on: in my time of dying does it for me.

I think it does for me, but I never know if that is awe when he doubles up the pace in places. I does lift me.

On 'Physical Graffiti' there is a tiny detail by Bonham that I played to my drum tutor that amazed him as much as it does me. Near the start of the the final verse, he drops in a very short snare fill, three beats ever so slightly ahead of the beat, and then two slightly after the beat. If you concentrate on this, it is as though the track stops dead for a fraction of a second, then starts again. I think it is somehwere around 3.11 into the track if memory serves me well. I find it amazing that in such a frantic track that he can play such a finely detailed break.

I must confess that I really do not like 'Moby Dick'. Reputedly the live solos in that were that long, so that the other members of the band could go backstage and enjoy the company of groupies half way through a gig.

Some of Art Blakey's playing on Monk Music brings a smile to me, that, like the playing of the others in the band, just seems to have such a sense of fun about it. His solos in 'Epistrophy' and 'Well You Neededn't' are two of only a handful of drum solos that I like.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
The classic drum intro to In the air tonight by PC will always carry loads of emotion.
Its been floged to death over the last few years on tv but at the time WOW.
Played the album a few days back on vinyl.
That bit of drumming still stands up with the best over the last 40 years.
Stu

Funnily I was thinking of the same thing just reading the title of the thread, before I saw your post...

Here you go, Stu!

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

Can drums convey emotion?

You can not use key, melody, only tempo and percussive effects.

But a drummer can use melody, and also dynamics, and articulation, and narrative orchestration, and color and texture, and all these things absolutely can convey emotion. Actually, I don't see how they couldn't.

All best,
Fred

Apart from the use of electronic drums, or tuning a large kit, I do not see how a drummer can use melody.

A percussionist can play instruments like the marimba, vibraphone, etc, and there is tuned percussion, chimes, etc.

With a basic kit, a drummer can enhance the feel of the music, and add colour and texture, and emphasise what the rest of the band are playing.

On the other hand, unless they only have one thing to hit (and one way to hit it), that's more than one note and so that lends you melodic options.

Okay, so not as many as a piano, but it's still more than nothing.

And why shouldn't a drummer use a large and/or electronic kit (Bruford specifically got into electronics to give more chordal possibilities in his work. Note that's "more", not "some"!)? Where is the dividing line between "large" and "small"? I think it will depend on the drummer as much as the kit.

Pete.

sorry but ringo is an average drummer at best for me.

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the work of Tony Williams on this thread. Listening to some of his solos with Miles I frequently find myself drawn into the rhythmic colours he manages to create. You just have to listen. OK, so maybe not an emotional experience, but certainly intense listening.

Regards, CB

Cozy Powell - amazing drummer.
Ronnie Tutt - superb drummer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...8XnFEMVM&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfjsG3O30cU
I must admit that as musicians, the Beatles for me were standard at best. Great songs though...

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

Apart from the use of electronic drums, or tuning a large kit, I do not see how a drummer can use melody.

I have heard, in concert and recordings, many great jazz drummers playing the actual melody of the song as part of their solo ... so clearly one could hum along it. Different size drums, hitting different areas of the heads, pressing/stretching heads with sticks or hands, all used to impart melody.

Now, I'm playing devil's advocate here to an extent because, granted, unless one is using precisely tuned drums or percussion, the pitches will not be as perfectly discreet as on a piano. But lots of melodic information is conveyed by musicians in the gray areas between discreet pitches ... singers, horns, guitar, just for example. After all, pitch is a continuum, not a series of discreet steps.

But drummers can indeed play melodies; I have heard it and so have many others. And the drums can absolutely convey emotion. How could they not?

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by scottyhammer:

sorry but ringo is an average drummer at best for me.

I've read a lot of interviews with great drummers, have spoken to a lot of great drummers, have had the good fortune to have played with some great drummers, and I'm even married to a great drummer. All of them think very highly of Ringo's abilities.

Here is just one drummer's opinion:

THIRTEEN REASONS TO GIVE RINGO SOME RESPECT
by John Bryant (drummer for Ray Charles, producer, session drummer)

Source URL: http://web2.airmail.net/gshultz

Ringo Starr, the luckiest no-talent on earth. All he had to do was smile and bob his head. Oh yes, and keep a beat for three of the most talented musicians/songwriters of this century. What other impression could one have when judging the role that Ringo played in the success of the Beatles? Did Ringo really make a difference? Upon listening to the latest release by The Beatles, Anthology 1, you get a chance to listen to Pete Best and two other drummers play on over twenty songs. Was Ringo simply in the right place at the right time? The following items may help in going beyond the image:

(1) Ringo was the first true rock drummer to be seen on TV. All the Rock & Roll drummers featured with Elvis, Bill Haley, Little Richard, Fats Domino and Jerry Lee Lewis were mostly R&B drummers that were making the transition from a swing drumming style of the 40’s and 50’s toward the louder and more “rocking” sound that is associated with “I Want To Hold Your Hand”. They were dressed in tuxedos and suits and held the drumsticks in the “traditional” manner of military, orchestra, and jazz drummers. Ringo showed the world that power was needed to put the emphasis on the “rock” in Rock & Roll music, so he gripped both sticks like hammers and proceeded to build a foundation for rock music.

(2) Ringo changed the way drummers hold their sticks by making popular the “matched” grip of holding drumsticks. Nearly all drummers in the Western World prior to Ringo held their sticks in what is termed the “traditional” grip, with the left hand stick held like a chopstick. This grip was originally developed by military drummers to accommodate the angle of the drum when strapped over the shoulder. Ringo’s grip changes the odd left hand to match the right hand, so that both sticks are held like a flyswatter. Rock drummers along with marching band and orchestral percussionists now mostly play with a “matched” grip, and drum companies have developed straps and accessories to accommodate them.

(3) Ringo started a trend of placing drummers on high risers so that they would be as visible as the other musicians. When Ringo appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1964, he immediately caught the attention of thousands of “drummers to be” by towering over the other three Beatles. Elvis’s drummer was looking at a collection of backs.

(4) These same “wannabe” drummers also noticed that Ringo was playing Ludwig drums and they immediately went out and bought thousands of these drum-sets, thus establishing Ludwig as the definitive name in Rock & Roll drums at that time.

(5) Ringo changed the sound of recorded drums. About the time of Rubber Soul (released Dec. 6,1965), the sound of the drum-set started to become more distinct. Along with help from the engineers at Abbey Road studios, Ringo popularized a new sound for the drums by tuning them lower, deadening the tonal ring with muffling materials, and making them sound “closer” by putting a microphone on each drum.

(6) Ringo has nearly perfect tempo. This allowed the Beatles to record a song 50 or 60 times, and then be able to edit together different parts of numerous takes of the same song for the best possible version. Today an electronic metronome is used for the same purpose, but the Beatles had to depend on Ringo to keep the tempo consistent throughout the dozens of takes of the songs that you know and love so well. Had he not had this ability, the Beatles recordings would sound completely different today.

(7) Ringo’s “feel” for the beat serves as a standard for pop-rock record producers and drummers alike. It is relaxed, but never dragging. Solid, yet always breathing. And yes, there is a great amount of musical taste in his decisions of what to play and when to play it. In most recording sessions, the drummer’s performance acts as a barometer for the rest of the musicians. The stylistic direction, dynamics, and emotions are filtered through the drummer. He is the catcher to whom the pitcher/songwriter is throwing. If the drumming doesn’t feel good, the performance of any additional musicians is doomed from the start. The Beatles rarely if ever had this problem with Ringo.

(8) Ringo hated drum solos, which should win points with quite a few people. He only took one solo while with the Beatles. His eight measure solo appears during “The End” on the “B” side of Abbey Road. Some might say that it is not a great display of technical virtuosity, but they would be at least partially mistaken. You can set an electronic metronome to a perfect 126 beats per minute, then play it along with Ringo’s solo and the two will stay exactly together.

(9) Ringo’s ability to play odd time signatures helped to push popular songwriting into uncharted areas. Two examples are “All you Need is Love” in 7/4 time, and “Here Comes the Sun” with repeating 11/8, 4/4, and 7/8 passages in the chorus.

(10) Ringo’s proficiency in many different styles such as two beat swing (”When I’m Sixty-Four”), ballads (”Something”), R&B (”Leave My Kitten Alone” and “Taxman”) and country (the Rubber Soul album) helped the Beatles to explore many musical directions with ease. His pre-Beatle experience as a versatile and hard working nightclub musician served him well.

(11) The idea that Ringo was a lucky Johnny-on-the-spot-with-a-showbiz-stage-name is wrong. In fact, when Beatle producer George Martin expressed his unhappiness after the first session with original drummer Pete Best, the decision was made by Paul, George, and John to hire who they considered to be the best drummer in Liverpool - Ringo Starr. His personality was a bonus.

(12) The rumors that Ringo did not play on many of the Beatle songs because he was not good enough are also false. In fact, he played on every released Beatles recording (not including Anthology 1) that include drums except for the following: “Back In The USSR” and “Dear Prudence”, on which Paul played drums due to Ringo temporarily quitting the band, “The Ballad of John and Yoko”, again featuring Paul on drums because Ringo was off making a movie, and a 1962 release of “Love Me Do” featuring session drummer Andy White.

(13) When the Beatles broke up and they were all trying to get away from each other, John Lennon chose Ringo to play drums on his first solo record. As John once said, “If I get a thing going Ringo knows where to go, just like that…” A great songwriter could ask no more of a drummer. Except maybe to smile and bob his head.



If further evidence is needed, here are some testimonials from some folks who, I hope we can agree, know what they're talking about:



Kenny Aronoff -- "I consider him one of the greatest innovators of rock drumming and believe that he has been one of the greatest influences on rock drumming today... Ringo has influenced drummers more than they will ever realize or admit. Ringo laid down the fundamental rock beat that drummers are playing today and they probably don't even realize it. (Modern Drummer,Oct. 1987) . . Ringo always approached the song more like a songwriter than a drummer. He always served the music." (Modern Drummer, Dec. 1987)

Editor of Modern Drummer magazine, presenting the Editor's Achievement Award to Ringo -- "What is beyond question is Ringo's impact on an entire generation of drummers who first became drummers as a direct result of seeing and hearing him play in the early days of The Beatles. Literally hundreds of thousands of players -- including some of the greatest drummers playing today -- cite Ringo as their first motivating influence."

Max Weinberg -- "D. J. Fontana had introduced me to the power of the big beat. Ringo convinced me just how powerful that rhythm could be. Ringo's beat was heard around the world and he drew the spotlight toward rock and roll drummer. From ;his matched grip style to his pioneering use of staggered tom tom fills, his influence in rock drumming was as important and wide spread as Gene Krupa's had been in jazz." (The Big Beat, 1984)

Jim Keltner -- "I will always be there to support him. He's more than a dear friend. He's like an idol. He's everything to me. I still think of him musically every time I sit down and play drums. He's a very important guy to me. (Discoveries magazine, April 1993)

Phil Collins, drummer for Genesis -- "I think he's vastly underrated. The drum fills on A Day In The Life are very complex things. You could take a great drummer today and say, 'I want it like that.' They wouldn't know what to do." (interview for The Making of Sgt. Pepper, 1992)

Alex Van Halen -- " One of the most interesting things about Ringo is how he manage to maintain a level of self-esteem -- in addition to being a great player, of course. But he wasn't overshadowed as a human being by McCartney, Lennon or Harrison. I think he did a wonderful thing for drums because drummers would see him and think, "Hey, he's part of it, too." (Modern Drummer magazine, July 1993)

Rory Storm -- "During the four or five years Ringo was with us, he really played the drums. He drove them. He sweated and swung and sung. Ringo sang about five numbers a night. He even had his own spot. It was called 'Ringo Starrtime.' " (Beatles Companion by Ted Greenwald)

D. J. Fontana -- "I was playing maracas or something behind him, just listening to him. I swear he never varied the tempo. He played that back beat and never got off it. Man, you couldn't have moved him with a crane. It was amazing. He played a hell of a back beat, Man, and that's where it's at." (interview for The Big Beat by Max Weinberg)

Don Was -- "As a drummer, he influenced three generations of rock drummers. It's not very flashy playing, but it's very musical. Instead of just counting the bars, he's playing the song, and he puts fills in unusual places that are directed by the vocal." (The St. Louis Post Dispatch, 1992)

George Martin -- "Ringo always got and still gets a unique sound out of his drums, as sound as distinctive as his voice. ... Ringo gets a looser deeper sound out of his drums that is unique. ...This detailed attention to the tone of his drums is one of the reasons for Ringo's brilliance. Another is that although Ringo does not keep time with a metronome accuracy, he has unrivaled feel for a song. If his timing fluctuates, it invariably does so in the right place at the right time, keep the right atmosphere going on the track and give it a rock solid foundation. This held true for every single Beatles number Richie played ... Ringo also was a great tom tom player." ( Summer of Love, 1994)

Kenny Aronoff -- "He consistently came up with new ideas that always seemed perfect for the song, but it wasn't just a matter of him picking a basic beat for a song, because lots of drummers could do that. Ringo definitely had the right kind of personality and creative ideas for The Beatles music. You will rarely find a Beatles song without something noticeable that Ringo played or didn't play." (Modern Drummer magazine, Oct. 1987)

Al Kooper -- "Sgt. Pepper was the album that changed drumming more than anything else. Before that album, drum fills in rock and roll were pretty rudimentary, all much the same, and this record had what I call space fills where they would leave a tremendous amount of air. It was most appealing to me musically and the sound of the drums got much better. What I had to figure out now was what am I going to do to get drums to sound like that." (Summer of Love by George Martin, 1994)

Martin Torgoff -- "If I could think of a single passage in which Ringo's quintessential style as a drummer is most identifiable, it could well be something as, say, the drumming behind George's guitar solo in Paul's "Let It Be" after the organ trails off. There, in simple 4-4 time, Ringo comes in with a trademark thump of his base drum, clear tattering snare, and his insistent smashing of the high hat, unvarying, unyielding, yet distinctively Ringo, and you can't help but smile not for its banality but because it is so perfectly adequate and because one can readily envision Ringo behind his kit as he plays, his beringed fingers clutching his sticks, swaying beatifically from side to side as he gets on with his work, blinking those astonishingly saturnine blue eyes." (The Compleat Beatles, 1985)

Max Weinberg -- "More than any other drummer, Ringo Starr changed my life. The impact and memory of that band on Ed Sullivan Show in 1964 will never leave me. I can still see Ringo in the back moving that beat with his whole body, his right hand swinging off his sock cymbal while his left hand pounds the snare. He was fantastic, but I think what got to me the most was his smile. I knew he was having the time of his life." (The Big Beat, 1984)

Martin Torgoff -- "As a drummer, he was a natural, purely intuitive, remarkably tasteful, spirited, but always basic, a proponent of less is more school of minimal drumming. ...He had an uncanny understanding of John's rhythm and Paul's base line. Time and again, the Beatles rode his backbeat to glory. Precisely because he never overstated a beat, or over accented a phrase (unless it was appropriate) he managed to get more mileage out of his licks than most drummers could ever dream of. The results were extraordinary." (The Compleat Beatles, 1985)

Don Was -- "Ringo's drums are one of the greatest things you can have on a record."

Hal Howland -- "It is fascinating to trace the drummer's stylistic development from rock-steady club veteran to studio innovator ... Ringo's command of an exhaustive list of arrangements and new originals is matched only by his versatility. (review for Modern Drummer magazine, June 1995)



All best,
Fred

Great post, Fred.

Ringo's an awesome drummer - rather than being about technique, his playing's all about feel and emotion.

Here he is on what the man himself considers to be his finest recorded performance, Rain.

One of their very best songs from when they were at their absolute peak, and yet it was only a B-side. Great video too (loving the blue shades!)

Ringo a poor drummer ? Oh come on , do you really think that albums that are still regarded as bench marks could posibly have worked with a musicaly average drummer . Listen to a day in the life and tell me thats an average drummer . Great artists will not carry a poor performer but will actually show them up , the greatest compliment you can give Ringo is he was never upstaged , his drumming just worked .