The downside to Vinyl?
Posted by: garyi on 08 May 2002
Of course its fair to say that CD is an excellent medium because of its ease of use and particualr non interest in how its treated.
However I am slinking slowly but surely into the belief that record just sounds better, as usual I can't explian why, it just does.
But dag nam it I have discovered the downside, crakles, pops and farts.
People I have taken the greatest of care with my vinyl, espcially of late now that I am getting into it.
I have what looks to be a pristine Big Buds 'Late Night Blues' but just recently its starting to sound blue, pops and crackles every where. I have cleaned it, treated it like it was my own, and how does it repay me? It does this!
Even worse, in a big way is some simply vinyl stuff I have, specifically Burnt Weeny Sandwich and Thick as a Brick, truely these are unlistenable (the background crackle ruining the opening to thick as a brick for instance) and really I have taken the greatest of care with them.
So common whats the secret, do we just get 'used to it'?
However I am slinking slowly but surely into the belief that record just sounds better, as usual I can't explian why, it just does.
But dag nam it I have discovered the downside, crakles, pops and farts.
People I have taken the greatest of care with my vinyl, espcially of late now that I am getting into it.
I have what looks to be a pristine Big Buds 'Late Night Blues' but just recently its starting to sound blue, pops and crackles every where. I have cleaned it, treated it like it was my own, and how does it repay me? It does this!
Even worse, in a big way is some simply vinyl stuff I have, specifically Burnt Weeny Sandwich and Thick as a Brick, truely these are unlistenable (the background crackle ruining the opening to thick as a brick for instance) and really I have taken the greatest of care with them.
So common whats the secret, do we just get 'used to it'?
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Markus
One possibility is that you are hearing static. This seems to be more of a problem when the weather is cold and dry. I have a felt turntable mat and sometimes the static is strong enough that when I remove a record from the platter it pulls the mat along with it.
There is a device designed to attack this called IIRC, the Zerostat. It's a goofy looking red "gun" shaped thingie with some kind of mojo inside. The key apparently is to make sure you get a copy of the original instructions that describe the "pattern" to follow when "de-stating" a record. Otherwise it doesn't seem to work. Actually, can't vouch for whether or not they work at all, but I've seen 'em...
Markus
There is a device designed to attack this called IIRC, the Zerostat. It's a goofy looking red "gun" shaped thingie with some kind of mojo inside. The key apparently is to make sure you get a copy of the original instructions that describe the "pattern" to follow when "de-stating" a record. Otherwise it doesn't seem to work. Actually, can't vouch for whether or not they work at all, but I've seen 'em...
Markus
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by John C
What have you cleaned them with? If you have overdried them they sometimes stick to sleeves, static. Do you get a pop when taking the record off?
JohnÃ
JohnÃ
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Alex S.
The way out of this is probably expensive: Piles of Mana, a better arm and cartridge (one of the better DVs say, not one of their cheapo offerings ;o)), or, best of all, a VPI or similar, ie proper, record cleaner.
As I said in a recent pile of mindless twaddle, an Aro/Arkiv or Aro/Te Kaitora combination is almost silent compared to my Ittok/Troika.
Alex
As I said in a recent pile of mindless twaddle, an Aro/Arkiv or Aro/Te Kaitora combination is almost silent compared to my Ittok/Troika.
Alex
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Pete, Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know
Hi,
Don't worry, time will take away your high frequency hearing so rendering crackles and dry pants a thing of the past.
Pete Mad Bad & Dangerous to Know
Don't worry, time will take away your high frequency hearing so rendering crackles and dry pants a thing of the past.
Pete Mad Bad & Dangerous to Know
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Dr. Exotica
quote:Bingo.
or, best of all, a VPI or similar, ie proper, record cleaner.
I've had tremendous success with a relatively standard configuration LP12 and a Nitty Gritty record cleaner (base model, ~$250). I do not think there is a bigger bang for the buck upgrade wrt LP listening satisfaction. After you get your LPs really clean, you can then fuss with racks, shelves, fancy arms, etc. as your budget allows.
Erik
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Steve B
Alex:
Would you care to clarify?
Gary,
Close your eyes, imagine a nice warm open coal fire between the speakers. (Or imagine you're frying sausages).
Works for me.
Steve B
quote:
better arm and cartridge (one of the better DVs say, not one of their cheapo offerings ;o)),
Would you care to clarify?
Gary,
Close your eyes, imagine a nice warm open coal fire between the speakers. (Or imagine you're frying sausages).
Works for me.
Steve B
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by garyi
Steve I love it! I may take the time to record someones fire and play it on the tele which is between the speakers ;-)
Alex I am using a rega with rb250, I have winging its way to me in the near future an LP12/ittok, mabye it would be fair to say I can upgrade my status to where you find yourself (and presumably don't enjoy).
Ah the upgrade path what a bitch.
For other info, I don't detect much in the way of static, would not touching the record and say a radiator sort this out?
As for mana, I have no issue with this, however I have just managed to get things looking really nice with an ash in cherry (like the speakers) and frankly I love it and as important so does my girlfriend (Whos flat it is) this inclusion of mana at this stage is simply not viable, hopefully when we have a bigger place.
Has anyone else had the same with simply vinyl? It seems to be really bad on them, although it could be fair to say in the beginning I played them all the time.
Ah well, roll on LP12
Alex I am using a rega with rb250, I have winging its way to me in the near future an LP12/ittok, mabye it would be fair to say I can upgrade my status to where you find yourself (and presumably don't enjoy).
Ah the upgrade path what a bitch.
For other info, I don't detect much in the way of static, would not touching the record and say a radiator sort this out?
As for mana, I have no issue with this, however I have just managed to get things looking really nice with an ash in cherry (like the speakers) and frankly I love it and as important so does my girlfriend (Whos flat it is) this inclusion of mana at this stage is simply not viable, hopefully when we have a bigger place.
Has anyone else had the same with simply vinyl? It seems to be really bad on them, although it could be fair to say in the beginning I played them all the time.
Ah well, roll on LP12
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Steve Crouch
works for me too! The Moth one (available via HiFi News mag)
Steve
Steve
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Chris Brandon
quote:
Close your eyes, imagine a nice warm open coal fire between the speakers. (Or imagine you're frying sausages).
...Loved it ! ( It has all the hallmarks of becoming a Classic ! )
Regards
Chris
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by garyi
Yes a decent record cleaner may indeed help, I have a cheap one from simply for forty quid and I am not sure exactly what the hell its doing.
So is the pops and crackles from dirt? Or is it the fact that something is impacting it quite often (needle) and it wears over time?
So is the pops and crackles from dirt? Or is it the fact that something is impacting it quite often (needle) and it wears over time?
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Rico
Gareth
beleive me, clicks and pops [read: noise floor]reduced after terminating with BNC's. Get to it!
I use carbon-fibre brushes cleaning the records. Don't seem to generate static much. One trick is to trail your pinkie finger on the t/t plinth while using - provide a static path. IIRC there was a brush years ago that had an earth wire on it! Guess static down the phono earth is not desireable though.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
beleive me, clicks and pops [read: noise floor]reduced after terminating with BNC's. Get to it!
I use carbon-fibre brushes cleaning the records. Don't seem to generate static much. One trick is to trail your pinkie finger on the t/t plinth while using - provide a static path. IIRC there was a brush years ago that had an earth wire on it! Guess static down the phono earth is not desireable though.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by garyi
The termianation is into phonos>BNC at the moment, again this should be remidied with the LP12, never the less I fail to see how this will help unless it is adjusting the sound being immited from the record, or perhaps this is the way it has always been.
Quick hand me an EQ that will sort it, just adjust the treble here....
Quick hand me an EQ that will sort it, just adjust the treble here....
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by garyi
Whilst we are on the subject I have picked up a few records recently which have the fucking pops and crakles already recorded on the track, making it twice as bad, give me strength.
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Andrew Randle
Gary, changing your P2 for an LP12 will improve the noise situation immensely. Also when I changed from a Valhalla to a Lingo, the drop in noise floor was astonishing - it probably halved.
Changing the Akito to an Ekos halved the noise floor again.
Also bear in mind that you are using a top moving coil cartridge with your P2. I'm guessing here, but maybe your Klyde is telling you how noisey the vinyl is on a P2.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Changing the Akito to an Ekos halved the noise floor again.
Also bear in mind that you are using a top moving coil cartridge with your P2. I'm guessing here, but maybe your Klyde is telling you how noisey the vinyl is on a P2.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by garyi
Fair enough Andrew, and one reason why I am very excited about my next upgrade!
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by JRHardee
An enthusiastic "ditto" to everything Andrew said. With a Lingo, most of the records that I'd written off as too crackly are thoroughly enjoyable.
I don't know whether the Mana table helped with pops and crackles, but it helped in every other respect.
It's the counterintuitive stuff that makes this hobby so interesting for me--more sensitive equipment=less noise; good supports REALLY make a difference.
I don't know whether the Mana table helped with pops and crackles, but it helped in every other respect.
It's the counterintuitive stuff that makes this hobby so interesting for me--more sensitive equipment=less noise; good supports REALLY make a difference.
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by Rico
quote:
never the less I fail to see how this will help unless it is adjusting the sound being immited from the record, or perhaps this is the way it has always been.
Stop thinking about it. If you keep on thinking, you'll come up with logical chestnuts such as "CD's must be better because..." and "this can't be so because my brain says so".
Your ears will tell you it is so, after you've done it.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
[This message was edited by Rico on WEDNESDAY 08 May 2002 at 22:20.]
Posted on: 08 May 2002 by J.N.
In my experience with gramophones down the years; this seems to happen with records that have not been played in a while. (Years).
You put it away carefully in pristine playing condition. Slap it on the vinyl grinder a few years later and it's 'snap, crackle and pop'.
Doesn't seem to happen with regularly played vinyl.
Don't forget that a worn stylus drops lower in the groove and picks up more crap.
I'm lucky to have a local dealer with a VPI wet/suction machine. Dry cleaners are a waste of time.
You put it away carefully in pristine playing condition. Slap it on the vinyl grinder a few years later and it's 'snap, crackle and pop'.
Doesn't seem to happen with regularly played vinyl.
Don't forget that a worn stylus drops lower in the groove and picks up more crap.
I'm lucky to have a local dealer with a VPI wet/suction machine. Dry cleaners are a waste of time.
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by Frank Abela
1. The P2/RB250 simply isn't man enough to manage the Klyde. People keep expecting Rega stuff to work miracles! Add to that the fact that you're going through a heckuva revealing system and you have a recipe for disaster. You may know I'm not a source first purist, but there's an element of balance that needs to be struck. The LP12/Ittok should help enormously.
2. The Klyde isn't the quietest cartridge around. It's good, but the stylus profile isn't one that allows it to get really deep into the grooves. Incidentally, if you have a fine line stylus (such as on some Dynavectors and Ortofons), they dig deeper into the groove which is where it is quieter, contrary to what's been said earlier. Provided the record is reasonably clean, pops and crackles are due to surface conditions. If the stylus tracks deeper into the groove, it won't pick them up (one reason I loved the 17D2 - quietest cartridge I've heard yet).
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
2. The Klyde isn't the quietest cartridge around. It's good, but the stylus profile isn't one that allows it to get really deep into the grooves. Incidentally, if you have a fine line stylus (such as on some Dynavectors and Ortofons), they dig deeper into the groove which is where it is quieter, contrary to what's been said earlier. Provided the record is reasonably clean, pops and crackles are due to surface conditions. If the stylus tracks deeper into the groove, it won't pick them up (one reason I loved the 17D2 - quietest cartridge I've heard yet).
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by Alex S.
Steve B,
Clarification: The 'better arm & carts' I've just heard were LP12 Aro and DV Te Kaitora and Arkiv B. I played Shpongle Tales of the Inexpressible on both decks and surface noise present on my Ittok/Troika combo all but disappeared.
Nonetheless, I'm sure a record cleaner is the best and most cost-effective option. Trouble is, I just haven't got round to buying one. It is such an unsexy and labour intensive purchase compared to a new cart in a fancy, velvet lined box.
The DV ref was a silly joke based on the fact that garyi has just been most generous with one.
Gary,
I am satisfied with my LP12/Ittok/Troika, it would be silly not to be, but it is noisy and lacks the pure magic of the Aro/Te Kaitora combo. The problem with magic is that when you're exposed to it you hanker after it.
Alex
Clarification: The 'better arm & carts' I've just heard were LP12 Aro and DV Te Kaitora and Arkiv B. I played Shpongle Tales of the Inexpressible on both decks and surface noise present on my Ittok/Troika combo all but disappeared.
Nonetheless, I'm sure a record cleaner is the best and most cost-effective option. Trouble is, I just haven't got round to buying one. It is such an unsexy and labour intensive purchase compared to a new cart in a fancy, velvet lined box.
The DV ref was a silly joke based on the fact that garyi has just been most generous with one.
Gary,
I am satisfied with my LP12/Ittok/Troika, it would be silly not to be, but it is noisy and lacks the pure magic of the Aro/Te Kaitora combo. The problem with magic is that when you're exposed to it you hanker after it.
Alex
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by Simon Matthews
The simply vinyl pressings are quite variable in quality of pressing. I have bought one recently (thr royal scam-steely dan) and it is not as good as a mid 80's uk pressing I already have. I don't think they always get their hands on decent masters in the first place. They satisfy the market but are not IMHO not always what they are cracked up to be.
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by Top Cat
Mana, better arms and cartridges and zerostats are all options too, but the best one is to ensure that you get all of the gunk out from the grooves - I use a VPI 16.5 and it works very well indeed, although the attraction of cleaning vinyl wears off very quickly!
Also ensure that you setup things like phono stages and the like well away from big transformers, and ensure that your armlead is properly terminated and away from big transformers as well. Lastly, I used to get the occasional bit of low-down noise until someone gave me a (cough) Russ Andrews product called a silencer, which is a wallwart with some kind of gubbins in it. I was very skeptical, but since I didn't buy it it remained. It does work, but I suspect you could make one for a lot less than the asking price - I think around thirty quid.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Also ensure that you setup things like phono stages and the like well away from big transformers, and ensure that your armlead is properly terminated and away from big transformers as well. Lastly, I used to get the occasional bit of low-down noise until someone gave me a (cough) Russ Andrews product called a silencer, which is a wallwart with some kind of gubbins in it. I was very skeptical, but since I didn't buy it it remained. It does work, but I suspect you could make one for a lot less than the asking price - I think around thirty quid.
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by Stephen Bennett
I second the Moth - cheap too if you are a carpenter or have access to one who can work for beer money. It's made *every* unplayable record almost noise free.
Add to that a LP12 and a decent arm/cart and you're laughing.
Stephen
Add to that a LP12 and a decent arm/cart and you're laughing.
Stephen
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by greeny
I'm not convinced a lot of these replys are on the right track.
I understand your problem completely Garyi. I have some recent simply vinyl pressing and whilst the sound quality (i.e. mastering) is not always great I have found the pressing quality to be very good (i.e very little background noise/pops etc.), however on second or third or fourth playing (within 1st week typically) suddenly a pop or two appears, WHERE'S THAT COME FROM you fume, often these appear in the middle of a track no where near where the stylus is put on the record.
I don't know the answer but I can't believe this is a dirty record from one play to the next.
Clearly one advantage of CD is you know any crackles etc are meant to be there. How many new LP's have you listened to and wondered whether the record noise is supposed to be there or not.
PS.
Well Garyi at least it doesn't really matter about the noise if you're listening to Zappa eh??!!
I understand your problem completely Garyi. I have some recent simply vinyl pressing and whilst the sound quality (i.e. mastering) is not always great I have found the pressing quality to be very good (i.e very little background noise/pops etc.), however on second or third or fourth playing (within 1st week typically) suddenly a pop or two appears, WHERE'S THAT COME FROM you fume, often these appear in the middle of a track no where near where the stylus is put on the record.
I don't know the answer but I can't believe this is a dirty record from one play to the next.
Clearly one advantage of CD is you know any crackles etc are meant to be there. How many new LP's have you listened to and wondered whether the record noise is supposed to be there or not.
PS.
Well Garyi at least it doesn't really matter about the noise if you're listening to Zappa eh??!!
Posted on: 09 May 2002 by garyi
Right greeny, outside.