The downside to Vinyl?

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You may know I'm not a source first purist, but there's an element of balance that needs to be struck.

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You may know I am a source first purist, and way more than an element of balance needs to be struck here! Gary’s system is built in completely the reverse order (excellent speakers, pretty good amp, barely adequate source). This can never work well!

A good deck is obviously the most important part of a vinyl system, and has the most to do with all aspects, and don’t get me wrong the P2 is a good deck, but it is a good deck in the context of a NAD and pair of small Royds or whatever. It is miles out of its league here.

My system is almost certainly the most source first around here, and it plays vinyl with a remarkable absence of surface noise despite large amount of my vinyl being second hand - some of it a good bit older than me, and some of it looks quite rough. Ok, I have probably the best record cleaner on the market, but that’s mainly to increase what I can buy safely second hand.

When that LP12 eventually comes a lot of things will get better, though I would go for a Aro or Ekos and cheaper speakers rather than a Ittok and SBLs were I in charge of your budget. Whatever you choose the LP12 will revolutionise the sound of your system, and almost certainly stop you playing CDs!

As for equipment stands, yes they do make a difference to the noise floor, but Mana is not the only one that does this – all of the decent ones do a similar thing in this respect. Mine (QS Ref) certainly works very well indeed.

Tony.

Tony I guess in this respect I didn't consider that I was mulleted. Mind you you could say source first is the cartridge, but then inot a rega I suppose it is a little under cooked.

I have a suspended wood floor so the ash in regard to this is quite good because its heavy. I know this is not supposed to be good for linn, and that it should be a light table, but you have to tip tap round the room then, no good for my clod hoppers.

Tony I guess in this respect I didn't consider that I was mulleted. Mind you you could say source first is the cartridge, but then into a rega I suppose it is a little under cooked.

I have a suspended wood floor so the ash in regard to this is quite good because its heavy. I know this is not supposed to be good for linn, and that it should be a light table, but you have to tip tap round the room then, no good for my clod hoppers.

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Mind you you could say source first is the cartridge

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You could, but you'd be wrong. Turntable/arm/cartridge.

I'm running a secondhand and probably ancient (thanks Ade!) K18 in my LP12/Ekos. I doubt your P2/Klyde sounds as good....

My first Linn was an upgrade to a Rega P3, coupled with a NAD3020 and Kef Codas. Your system really is Mullet Central to us Flat Earth Source First Old Timers.

Paul

Most surface noise comes from hairline (or larger) scratches in the record. No wet cleaning can help with this. Better playback equipment can help--tonearms and turntables with better bearings, stylus profiles that dig deeper, below the scratches, probably tip mass as a factor, plus electronics that can deal with the massive transients that scratches present. You can see these scratches with a bright point-source light, or the sun.

Sometimes, noisy vinyl is due to pressing flaws--grooves that aren't properly filled out (due to worn stampers or not leaving the stampers on the discs long enough(, bubbles, and so forth. Record cleaning can't fix this either.

Also, poor quality vinyl will literally disintegrate under the pressure of the stylus, and little chunks will shear off the record as the wear.

Using plastic or plastic lined sleeves (like discwasher, Nagoaka, Nitty Gritty) prevents the simple act of sliding an lp in and out of the sleeve from causing any scratches--which is the only source of wear of a well handled lp.

Some noise is caused by mold relase agents which cleaning can remove.

Some noise is caused by detritus in the grooves which can be removed by using your fingernails or a toothpick concentrically.

Finally, there is groove damage from repeated prior mistracking that sounds exactly like mistracking. I hate this. It's usually worse in the inner grooves, presumably because anti-skating was not understood in the past, and because of cartridge misaligment. Sometimes this is visible as a greying of highly modulated passages. Cleaning can't do anything about it--the grooves were permanently damaged by the stylus bouncing around.

Visually grading can be very deceptive because many obvious scuffs will not sound, having only deformed the tops of the grooves, while tiny scratches which can only be seen at the right angle from a point source light will cause constant crackle. And older (50s, 60s) records with deeper grooves will play decent when they look trashed, while 70s records will often play trashed when they look decent.

In my experience, the best thing about record cleaning is that it can provide a "1/2 hicap" improvement in music--like a fog is lifted (perhaps more with a really old, really grungy record). This makes surface noise subjectively less important, and it should be better for stylus and record wear.

It is also my experience that when I buy a record new, put it in a rice paper sleeve, and handle it carefully, that it acquires extra surface noise very slowly. Everything I've put in rice paper has stayed free of surface crackle.

--Eri

Thanks for all the replies guys.

So in conclusion if cleaning ain't helping then its most likely to be a knackered record, ignoring the deck for now.

I have a cheap cleaner which does appear to brighten up records, but this if anything seems to make the crackles and pops more prominant, its not even as if they have moved the pops still come at the same points, so I guess this would most likely be record damage.

In this respect then I guess its just worth keeping an eye out for a replacement, I have to say I have got some fantastic deals recently on vinyl, but what I really want is a minted Meddle album!

Onto the deck, for now I have the rega, so mabye a really good check that the cart is in correctly would be in order. One question on the klyde how should it go in the rega arm? Does it want to be at the front so its smooth?

or does it need to be further back or whatever, I only ask because the alignment card I have seems a little crap for aligning things.

Also in respect to the needle digging past the crud, would a little more weight on the cart be in order, or is this a no no?

P.S. that is a little dust on the records, but my utterely cak kodak does that to all pictures, word to the wise for anyone considering a digital camera, move straight on past kodak.

Anyway, interesting responses, thanks.

I look forward to the LP12!

[This message was edited by garyi on FRIDAY 10 May 2002 at 11:27.]

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One question on the klyde how should it go in the rega arm?

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Correct setup of a turntable is absolutely critical - especially cartridge alignment. Get it a bit out and tracking distortion goes through the roof. The Rega arms align for a null point at 60mm, so most two point protractors are wrong. Use a Rega one or modify any standard one top work at this length (i.e. mark line at 60mm from the spindle centre).

There is some good setup advice on this thread: Anti-skating set up question

It is well worth spending some time getting alignment, tracking weight, anti-skate all correct. It is not hard, just a little time consuming, but once its done, its done for a good while.

Enjoy.

Tony.

Tony thanks for that please don't take the piss, but I have no idea what a null point or 6cm is in relation to this!?!

I assume I should measure from the beginning of the arm to the end or something?

I havn't got a protractor but I think its one of those semi circular things, how does this help in setting up a cartridge.

I read your post from your link but am none the wiser.

Cheers from a thick chef

There is a good PDF somewhere there (not the LP12 manual) about replacing a MC cart which shows how to set it up and includes a Blue Peter protractor. I could email you a copy if you can't find it.

Simon

Cheers, Lo, I will have a look but don't have a printer!

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Tony thanks for that please don't take the piss, but I have no idea what a null point or 6cm is in relation to this!?!

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Sorry about that! – If you look at the picture below of a standard two point alignment protractor the null points are the two areas marked with lines parallel to the centre spindle that are used to align the cartridge. In the case with many protractors (such as this one) the markings are actually in the wrong place for the Rega arm geometry. The null points are measured from the centre of the hole that fits over the spindle – the standard inner null point distance is 66mm, and the distance correct for the Rega is 60mm. The reason I pointed this out is that using the wrong protractor for a deck will result in incorrect alignment. Basically it is best to use the protractor that came with the deck unless you fully understand what you are doing – Rega will supply one if asked.

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Cheers from a thick chef

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Cheers from an unemployed looser (300 job apps and counting...).

Tony.

Tony I have the genuine rega card, it has the null point, or as I like to think of it the 'bulls eye'.

However its not realy an exact science, at least not for me, there seems to be a degree of variance once the needle is on the mark which you only have your eye to rely on. OK I may be getting far to anal over this one, but will check when I get home.

I am only thinking now that when you look at the head from above, the screws holding the cart don't look totally central to the holes in the head, if you know what I mean, however it does line up with the 'bulls eye' and looks straight according to the lines.

Another thing, this is an expensive cart, and my hands shake when I am trying this delicate manover with the needle sat on a peice of paper that looks like it wants to tear it out :-(

Refer to the top of the thread regards the ease of use with CDs !!

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Originally posted by garyi:

I have a cheap cleaner which does appear to brighten up records, but this if anything seems to make the crackles and pops more prominant, its not even as if they have moved the pops still come at the same points, so I guess this would most likely be record damage.

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I've sometimes experienced this. My rationalization is as follows:

The dirt on the record has filled in the scratch a bit, and when you clean it, the scratch becomes more audible. After a couple of plays, the stylus essentially polishes the scratch so it's not as loud any more.

The disc doctor, whose products are highly recommended by me and others (www.discdoc.com), says that noise may increase after cleaning, but will decrease after a couple of plays.

--Eric

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You can see these scratches with a bright point-source light, or the sun.

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Eric's observation is quite true. The sun can be used to distinct advantage when attending outdoor record shows (there is a big one each month in Pasadena). When I go to pay for the records, I will sometimes question the grading of the LP (particularly on the pricey ones - e.g., above $10). When the dealer pulls it out and views it in the sunlight, the LP will invariably look much worse than it actually is and the price will be adjusted downward. I've probably saved/swindled a couple hundred dollars using this trick.

Erik

Gary,

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...in this respect I didn't consider that I was mulleted.

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You've managed to put together a system that has a mullet before the amp.

As others have suggested, the most cost-effective corrective haircut would be a used LP12 and Ittok.

Joe

Gary,

From your description, the cartridge is way out. If you're not confident that you have the skill or wish to take the risk to get it right, get thee to a good, and preferably Rega, dealer and plea for help!

If you are willing to try, this is what you should do:

1. Loosen those bolts slightly so the cartridge can move with a little pressure, but not too easily.

2. Place the Rega protractor on the platter with the hole in the corner snug down over the spindle.

3. Move the card approximately to where the 'bullseye' would be under the headshell approximately.

4. Keeping the arm raised, swing it across, so the headshell is over the bullseye (you get my drift so far I hope).

5. Align the headshell with the parallel lines on the protractor, ensuring the headshell is centred over the bullseye. This may involve moving both the card and arm until you're happy with the situation.

6. Lower the arm so it rests on the protractor.

7. Adjust the arm so the headshell aligns again with the parallel lines and is centred over the bullseye. Careful with that stylus...

8. Having got the arm in the correct position, look at the cartridge from above and from the side. This way you can see what attitude the stylus has to the bullseye. From above you can see if the cartridge body is aligned laterally to the headshell and bullseye. From the side you can see if the stylus is at the correct distance - it should lie directly on top of the crosshairs in the bullseye.

9. Move the cartridge until the correct position is achieved. Every time you move the cartridge, check the headshell position first when you place the arm back on the protractor. Then check the cartridge position.

10. Do up the bolts holding the cartridge. Check the cartridge position again.

Some people say that the technique of aligning the cartridge body is flawed since you're not taking into account the attitude of the stylus to the body. Fair comment, but 1) a decent cartridge should have a correctly mounted stylus and 2) the stylus is so tiny it's difficult to tell if it's mounted correctly or not and therefore well-nigh impossible to adjust against, certainly not without a magnifying glass, but a magnifier has significant aberrations in the glass unless it's a jeweller's so this is the most reliable method I know. You can check roughly that the stylus is right by looking at the cartridge from the front while sitting over the protractor. The stylus should sit neatly on the crosshairs without leaning one way or t'other.

You muttered about doing things by eye, but at this level our eye is actually an extremely accurate instrument provided you have your frames of reference i.e. the parallel lines and the headshell. Those are effectively your x and y axes off of which you can plot your position.

Do not run your cartridge heavy in a bid to dig out dirt from the grooves. You'll wear it out faster than you should, gain no benefit musically (possibly worse), and possibly rip the stylus off if it comes up against a similar sized speck of dust (it happens). If you're really concerned about dirty records either get them cleaned by a dealer, or clean them with a decent cleaner. For really bad examples, I suggest Permaclean. It's a wet system, but it works.

Oh - and for those of you with static problems, Permostat is just the ticket - amazing results.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

[This message was edited by Frank Abela on FRIDAY 10 May 2002 at 20:46.]

Cheers frank, its the stupid person walk throughs I can deal with, will check it in the morning because I have taken advantage of tescos 20% off Americans wine thing!!

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Originally posted by garyi:
P.S. that is a little dust on the records, but my utterely cak kodak does that to all pictures, word to the wise for anyone considering a digital camera, move straight on past kodak.

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Gary,

yours too, eh?

Ironic that both your deck & camera are unable to look past the crap on the surface.

I suspect the reason is at least partly the same too - neither is really re-producing the true dynamic range of the source.

cheers, Martin

P.S. this 52 looked fine to the nekid eye.



[This message was edited by Martin Payne on SATURDAY 11 May 2002 at 14:53.]