AV Question

Well a couple of thoughts come to mind:
1. A sub would allow you to use speakers that are somewhat less "intrusive" into your living environment. The main Naim dem at the Bristol show had a pair of DBLs running. They are VERY large and VERY ugly, hardly the kind of thing to appease the wife with.

2. I really didn't like the DBLs at the show. In my opinion they suffered from colouration due to the size of their box (massive) and the room interaction. e.g. just downstairs B&W had a pair of large nautilus. Whilst the DBLs did a much better job of playing music, the Nautilus (IMO) really showed the DBLs a clean pair of heals for at least having real self control. So it's not that it can't be done, just that the DBLs don't do it.
I'm guessing that the DBLs will only work well in BIG rooms. Having a sub would allow you to use smaller speakers (e.g. SLs) and still get really low bass.

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Originally posted by Mr_Sukebe:
They are VERY large and VERY ugly, hardly the kind of thing to appease the wife with.

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actually the 'wife' loves them...

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Originally posted by Mr_Sukebe:

Whilst the DBLs did a much better job of playing music, the Nautilus (IMO) really showed the DBLs a clean pair of heals for at least having real self control. .

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Give me the better music anytime

Yours in Music

Syd

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Give me the better music anytime

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me too. So does anybody out there have any thoughts at all on the advantages of a sub in an av setup?

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:

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Give me the better music anytime

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me too. So does anybody out there have any thoughts at all on the advantages of a sub in an av setup?

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Don't think you need it. I have more bass that I can handle on my AV set-up without a sub.
Terry

I don't think that you need one either. I'm only using Linn Ninkas as my main speakers (and they aren't noted for having monster bass) and I've never felt the need for more bass on movies.

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Originally posted by BLT:
I don't think that you need one either. I'm only using Linn Ninkas as my main speakers (and they aren't noted for having monster bass) and I've never felt the need for more bass on movies.

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Thanks guys. So do all av processors have the options of diverting the .1 channel into your front speakers or is that just a feature of the AV2?

Mr Sukebe,

Don't dismiss DBL's just because of what you heard in a hotel room at Bristol. I own DBL's and have heard about five other pairs in different rooms, and they all sounded completely different. They will work in a small room too, as long as the room is well behaved. Bristol was not the best I've heard DBL's, nor the worst, but the object was to show the differences between the three power amps. Some find DBL's ugly, I personally thought the walnut veneer at the show looked fantastic, and would complement a lot of the Robin Day furniture that is popular at the moment.

I didn't bother with a sub in my AV set up, as the house shakes enough as it is!

To my knowledge all AV processors can route the .1 into the left and right front channels. Up-market processors can route it to the degree that you wish into all 5. This is often more than adequate if not actually preferable to using a sub; with DBLs I think explosions will be real enough.

Alex

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
To my knowledge all AV processors can route the .1 into the left and right front channels. Up-market processors can route it to the degree that you wish into all 5. This is often more than adequate if not actually preferable to using a sub; with DBLs I think explosions will be real enough.

Alex

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Well that's good to hear... or maybe not as it means that an av setup has suddenly become more realistic.

I run a 5 channel setup with Tukans for front L/R speakers and feel I have plenty of bass without a sub. Most A/V receivers have bass mgmt that let's you redirect the bass to any speaker, I redirect the rears to the fronts.

I would invest in a good center channel as this channel produces 90% of the sound. Running a center channel to me is much better than phantom mode.

Ofcourse you should invest in a center!! its no A/V system with only the front speakers! The sub question is more dificult. A resonable priced sub? Reasonable compared to what i might ask. I suggest that some people out there wouldn´t take the DBL´s for a reasonable priced pair of speakers... You need to ask yourself -Am I intressted in a sub? If the answer is yes, then in order to get any use of a sub you should be looking for the same standard (not neccesarely the same price, but atleast the same range) as the DBL´s this goes for the center as well!!

Brad

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You need to ask yourself -Am I intressted in a sub?

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that's the whole point... I don't know if I should be interested in a sub. Obviously the opinions above suggest that it's not really necessary with DBLs and that the subwoofer channel can be piped through the front speakers.
So presuming for a second that I have an unlimited budget, what advantage is there in buying a sub rather than relying on the DBLs to do the work?

John.

I can't comment on the DBL's or the AV2 specifically but I have SBL's (fed by 82/135's and a Denon AV amp) I found that directing the Bass to the front two channels gave no where near the impact of using a decent Sub.

I got a rel Q400 this has 400W driving One 12inch cone and producing all 10Hz -80Hz signals. Movies have much more impact with this arrangment than one NAP135 driving an SBL to cover all the BAss and rest of the front channel info.

This was my experiance but DBL's and AV2 may be sufficient.

The pros and cons of subwoofing
One could say that the use of dedicated amps allways is an advantage. The amp is designed to suite the driver (not far of naim´s thinking). The sub is designed to play low octave.. As a result you take a load of the DBL´s (alltough they might handle it..) and your power amps. Then there is the placeing of your sub, the A/V setup synergy might not be same as your present music one (i presume you prioritate the music). Moving around DBL´s just to watch a flick..??.. Finding where a sub works at its best(i´m sorry to tell you but it take sh.t loads of time, but hang in there) you must listen to it at home and i think you should its the only way to se if your DBL´s is up to the job or if a designated sub has got a nich in your home. ( if you take the sub home to try it out keep it for a while otherwise you can never find the perfect place for it.) sorry to bore everyone to death..

Brad

Sub is essential kit to an av setup.

Once you try it you won't go back!

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Originally posted by pac:
Sub is essential kit to an av setup.

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well having now bought an av amp - yamaha dsp ax630 in case anyone is interested - I can say this comment was clearly made by someone that doesn't have DBLs

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well having now bought an av amp - yamaha dsp ax630 in case anyone is interested - I can say this comment was clearly made by someone that doesn't have DBLs

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John unless you tried it you don't know this. A sub is not all about thunderous bass for A/V it is also about subtle enhancement of the very low frequency's. A decent quality REL sub will still be giving controlled bass output at frequency's where your DBL's are "rolling off".

If you go to the trouble of "tuning" the sub into the system as recommended by REL you get an enhanced music experience. There is a "lift" to the whole soundstage which is difficult to account for but extends well beyond the bass frequency's into the mid range.

Check out www.rel.com

My personal experience agrees with this and confirms that a well setup sub ehances not just the AV but also the stereo coming from my Naim kit coupled to a pair of main speakers that are rated down to 28Hz!(Totem MANI 2)

regards

GEOFFP

Whichever speaker you wind up with, having a sub (or two) is essential.

I would be surprised if a sub would give you anything over DBLs, except the ability to turn it up and give you loads-a-bass.

One caveat - as with any flat earth system, the quality of the bass is going to be dependent on the quality of the source, presumably either a DVD player or TV.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Martin, I'm with you on this one. The DBLs are rated down to 17Hz. As it is, the bass on movies is felt more than heard. For those suggesting otherwise - if you think you need an extra 2Hz, you could spend £4000 on the top Rel sub... that should really get the room shaking.

John,
I have to agree with Geoff P .... not matter how good you think your speakers are at producing bass in music and movies .... they cannot even come near to completing with a "well set-up and tuned" subwoofer.

I too have access to a Home Theater fanatics home here in Vietnam. He is from the UK and is Using the REL (forget the model but its a monster) and Totem Mani 2's (they are midgets)
It's really uncanny to listen to on music and movies. You don't really realize it's on until he turns it off. Awesome.

But he follows the REL set procedure and has it printed out always on his bookshelf.