Chernobyl - an argument against nuclear power?

Wait until the "dead" Russian submaries start to rust through.

Anti nuclear power lobby says there is a possibilty (certainty)of another Chernobyl or worse.
It has to be balanced against the almost certain deaths from coal,gas, rubbish etc fuelled power stations emmissions, and the potential massive numbers killed/maimed from another nuclear disaster.

Howard

See paul99's comments in
a previous Chernobyl thread

and save bandwidth

Chernobyl was caused by meddling with a stable system and was not, actually, much of a disaster at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
See paul99's comments in
a previous Chernobyl thread

and save bandwidth

Yes, I remember that thread. I have re-read paul99's comments.

The disaster at Chernobyl was caused by a combination of design and human factors.

While the plants in the Western countries may be of a different design, are you, by your post, suggesting that they cannot be mismanaged to the point of causing a disaster? Because that is my point - that the enormity of the possible consequences seem to outweigh the benefits.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Chernobyl was caused by meddling with a stable system...

A nuclear reactor is a stable system? I am struggling with this one, Nigel. Could you explain what you mean by "stable system"?

quote:

...and was not, actually, much of a disaster at all.

I'm struggling with this one too. I assume that you are using some kind of comparator against which the explosion of Reactor Four at Chernobyl was trivial by comparison. Which disaster are you using as your comparator?

In another 176 years the strontium 90 will be at a level comparable with the Hiroshima bomb on the day it was dropped. The half life of strontium 90 is 28 years, and Chernobyl released 100 times that of the radiation of the Hiroshima bomb.
Not much of a disaster? It is a disaster for mankind that we continue to build nuclear reactors that cannot ever be decommissioned and we must face a terrorist threat that could target reactors and potentially wipe out the human race from the planet.

Deane

Perhaps "controlled" system is more apt, then.

As for disaster, well you introduced this term so perhaps you had better define it first. It might be that I agree with your definition.

Rasher

Not sure what your point is, apart from giving a physics lesson. Wipe out the human race? I don't think so.

Nigel

So, the operators meddled with a controlled system. That was what they were supposed to do - they were running tests on the systems.

It's almost absurd to try and define the concept of disaster. You suggested that Chernobyl was not a disaster. I would, in turn, suggest that the more than quarter of a million people that were evacuated and resettled as a result puts the accident firmly in the disaster category.

Google Earth has got photos and everything in full detail. Fascinating.

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
Nigel

So, the operators meddled with a controlled system. That was what they were supposed to do - they were running tests on the systems.

It's almost absurd to try and define the concept of disaster. You suggested that Chernobyl was not a disaster. I would, in turn, suggest that the more than quarter of a million people that were evacuated and resettled as a result puts the accident firmly in the disaster category.

They were not supposed to meddle in the way they chose to.

250,000 people not killed? Disaster indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

250,000 people not killed? Disaster indeed.

I have to correct you here. In fact, the entire population of the planet Earth was not killed in the not-disaster at Chernobyl...

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

They were not supposed to meddle in the way they chose to.

Yes, they were supposed to meddle in the way that they chose to. It was a scheduled test.

Please, please! We are talking of reporting from the old Soviet block. I have read that the method of testing was not authorised, and that the test was authorised, presumably both on the basis of press conferences given by the old authorities! The truth of it will never come out in a certain fashion.

I don't think the standards at Chernobyl are anything to compare to what goes on in developed economies of the world in nuclear power generation, and in the third world economies, there appears to be quite an enthusiam for nuclear generation, so we might as well get on and use it!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

...
I don't think the standards at Chernobyl are anything to compare to what goes on in developed economies of the world in nuclear power generation, and in the third world economies, there appears to be quite an enthusiam for nuclear generation, so we might as well get on and use it!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

And to me that is the most worrying part of nuclear enerygy generastion. What shortcuts are these third world countries willing to make? Actually same goes for developed countries as well - especially if they are privately owned!

So Fredrik, I'll ask you the same question I asked Derek; are you suggesting that reactors in the West cannot be mismanaged to the point where a disaster happens?

No more or less than other human enterprises. Look at Global Warming and promise me with certainty that fossil fuels are being well managed for example. Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by PJT:
... What shortcuts are these third world countries willing to make? Actually same goes for developed countries as well - especially if they are privately owned!

The first Nuclear reactor catastrophe was managed in UK by a State run organsisation. I don't think incompetence is the sole preserve of the private sector, or third world countries!

There is no point in worrying about that which you can do nothing about. That way lies madness.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

The choices are:

1/ Countries develop nuclear power with the small chance of meltdown etc. Or

2/ Face the absolute certainty of more oil wars which could trigger world war. Or

3/ Develop something as yet unproven like fission or cold fusion or something as yet undreamed of. I don't know the answer.

I don't think anyone really knows the answer to this, but if there is an electricity shortage, we shall soon see how thin the veneer of civilisation really is. Then the events at Chernobyl will soon appear a rather small affair, I suspect.

ATB from Fredrik

In order to avoid using nuclear power or fossil fuel power I generate my own. I have a bicycle rigged up to a generator in a room in my house where I pedal away for 14 hours a day. This causes the room to smell a fair bit of sweat and rubber (I go through 4 tyres a day), so we have an extract fan system going full time, and I need to drink a lot of water, so I buy crate loads of bottled Evian which comes delivered by van. I also need to eat a fair amount, so my food comes by van too, and then of course are the vitamin supplements that I need, which causes my guts play up a bit. This causes me to use the loo a few times a day, so the flush is going regularly and I guess they have to deal with it all before it gets dumped out at sea, which isn't very pleasant. My water bills are fairly hefty because of this because it's metered. With all the sweat I have to change my clothes 4 times a day, so the poor old washing machine is on 24/7 and with all the rain recently we've had to get a tumble drier to keep up.
Bloody worth it though, if only to make my contribution to save the planet.
I could of course just turn the hi-fi off when I'm not listening, but we don't do that, do we.

I wonder how much CO2 YOU produce per kWH during this 14 hour regime.....

RE Mismanagement of nuclear recators in the West - I have no knowledge or opinion (as I am not a legal bod living in NZ or a nuclear engineer) - I pointed readers to a source of potentially useful information. I could not find another post from an earlier date that gave a run down of the various types of reactor and their design integrity which did not give the doom and gloom (or radio active glow) outlook as favoured by some folk.

Frederick had it pretty close on Chernobyl. The test was authorised however it was not executed in accordance with the authorised test procedure. I believe the final death toll was of the order of 58 including some very good people who knowingly sacrificed themselves for the greater good.
Three Mile Island was arguably operator error. The operations crew mis-diagnosed a problem with the reactor (a leaking valve). Unfortunately the warning light that would have led them to a more satisfactory diagnosis was obscured by the tag on a key in a switch above it.
Since then a lot of work has gone into the design of the control room interface and the underlying systems for monitoring and automating safety. Barring deliberate human mis-management (and much of this is now precluded by the tamper-proof safety systems) modern reactors are extremely safe.
I'd rather live next door to a nuke that a coalfired station.

Regards,

Willy.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
See paul99's comments...

and save bandwidth

I've been thinking about this and wonder whether a lot more bandwidth could be saved in the Hifi Room than could be saved in the Padded Cell.

For instance - Adam could post some stickies. Such as:

Looking for a Turntable? - just get a secondhand LP12 because they're not that much bother really. No, really. They're really not as bad as people say. Really.

Links to non-Naim loudspeaker manufacturers websites (that would save a LOT of bandwidth.)

PB has spent a lot of money and is very happy with his system.

That sort of thing.

It seems that whatever lessons will have had to be learned from Chernobyl, there is little doubt that the use of Nuclear Power is not only compelling from the angle of CO2 emissions but going to prove absolutely necessary to fill the inevitable energy gap which will emerge if China and India carry on growing so fast economically, unless the effects of Global warming allow for the Arctic waters to be opened up, and the Russians to extract what is thought to be there. Note the interesting bit of Empire building going on in the region even in the last day!

This is double edged sword of course!

ATB from Fredrik