The Well Tempered Record Player
Posted by: Alex S. on 17 April 2003
I thought I might as well give one a try, not that I was unhappy with my LP12/Aro/Lingo, far from it.
What I was expecting was better defined instruments, more detail and separation, greater dynamic range, less wow and flutter, less groove, speed and flow. What I got was better defined instruments, more detail and separation, greater dynamic range, less wow and flutter and more groove, speed and flow.
Quite shocking really. So, goodbye LP12. Its been a long and beautiful relationship but something younger and more beautiful has taken your place.
Alex
What I was expecting was better defined instruments, more detail and separation, greater dynamic range, less wow and flutter, less groove, speed and flow. What I got was better defined instruments, more detail and separation, greater dynamic range, less wow and flutter and more groove, speed and flow.
Quite shocking really. So, goodbye LP12. Its been a long and beautiful relationship but something younger and more beautiful has taken your place.
Alex
Posted on: 20 April 2003 by Tim Jones
Uh hang on, the theory that a fully loaded LP12 is waaaay better than a P9 (even though it costs waaaaaay more money) seems to be gaining the status of....a received opinion.
I've done the dems. Even though it would have been more economic for me to upgrade my LP12/Valhalla/Aro, I bought a P9 instead.
I know we've been here before and I know it's all a matter of opinion, but I think there are fundamental problems with LP12s. As someone once said on this forum, whatever you play on them sounds like the rhythm section is playing a shuffle. And while both Lingo and Geddon tighten up the bass in their different ways, it still (to my ears) sounds woolly compared to other decks with designs which started from where the LP12 left off.
It's hard to avoid getting into one of those 'what I've got's better than what you've got' discussions, but it is at least nice to see people questioning consensus sometimes. Good on you Alex. Hmmm, perhaps I should have demmed one of those...
Tim
I've done the dems. Even though it would have been more economic for me to upgrade my LP12/Valhalla/Aro, I bought a P9 instead.
I know we've been here before and I know it's all a matter of opinion, but I think there are fundamental problems with LP12s. As someone once said on this forum, whatever you play on them sounds like the rhythm section is playing a shuffle. And while both Lingo and Geddon tighten up the bass in their different ways, it still (to my ears) sounds woolly compared to other decks with designs which started from where the LP12 left off.
It's hard to avoid getting into one of those 'what I've got's better than what you've got' discussions, but it is at least nice to see people questioning consensus sometimes. Good on you Alex. Hmmm, perhaps I should have demmed one of those...
Tim
Posted on: 20 April 2003 by Bob Edwards
Mark--
I'm sure many of us here are delighted you own a TT you greatly enjoy and prefer to others. However, I would suggest that you simply state you prefer the WT to the LP12 and leave it at that. It is, after all, only a preference existing within a given room and system.
While I would agree the WT Classic is an excellent TT, I think you should tread lightly as far as "educating" others on the forum. Several people here (myself included) have heard WT's at length and chose LP12s/P9's/Xerxes etc. That does not make the WT bad, it simply means more people have liked the LP12 enough to buy it.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards
I'm sure many of us here are delighted you own a TT you greatly enjoy and prefer to others. However, I would suggest that you simply state you prefer the WT to the LP12 and leave it at that. It is, after all, only a preference existing within a given room and system.
While I would agree the WT Classic is an excellent TT, I think you should tread lightly as far as "educating" others on the forum. Several people here (myself included) have heard WT's at length and chose LP12s/P9's/Xerxes etc. That does not make the WT bad, it simply means more people have liked the LP12 enough to buy it.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Alex S.
Sorry Mark, not telling about source and price. I do know it wasn't yours though.
The StrataBase is a prototype platform made by Base. Unlike the standard Base it doesn't kill the music. I've nerded around with it a couple of times in other systems and it only seems to work in mine. If I didn't already have the SBase I would be happy with just the Hutter.
There's an interesting company who can make cheap softwood as dense as ebony so I may get a slab of that, for now its just melamine faced high density chipboard (kitchen worktop) for mass.
As far as dust goes, I've just modified a plastic container to fit over the silicone well so at least that's covered.
Bob, I'm sure we're not trying to re-educate anyone but many just assume that an LP12 can't be bettered in 2003 and buy one blind just as I did in 1980. There are now some interesting alternatives for less money which deserve audition. If you buy an LP12 anyway, fine. I'm banging on about the WT for 2 reasons: I've just got one and can find no fault relative to my LP12 so I'm enthusiastic about it; they are not that well known in the UK so I'm spreading the word, but not trying to educate.
Alex
PS Still not entirely convinced by Obelisks but I'm sure I'll come round in the end (may need Hawks though, gulp).
PPS Didn't think this was a 5 star thread.
The StrataBase is a prototype platform made by Base. Unlike the standard Base it doesn't kill the music. I've nerded around with it a couple of times in other systems and it only seems to work in mine. If I didn't already have the SBase I would be happy with just the Hutter.
There's an interesting company who can make cheap softwood as dense as ebony so I may get a slab of that, for now its just melamine faced high density chipboard (kitchen worktop) for mass.
As far as dust goes, I've just modified a plastic container to fit over the silicone well so at least that's covered.
Bob, I'm sure we're not trying to re-educate anyone but many just assume that an LP12 can't be bettered in 2003 and buy one blind just as I did in 1980. There are now some interesting alternatives for less money which deserve audition. If you buy an LP12 anyway, fine. I'm banging on about the WT for 2 reasons: I've just got one and can find no fault relative to my LP12 so I'm enthusiastic about it; they are not that well known in the UK so I'm spreading the word, but not trying to educate.
Alex
PS Still not entirely convinced by Obelisks but I'm sure I'll come round in the end (may need Hawks though, gulp).
PPS Didn't think this was a 5 star thread.
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Number 5
Alex
I've never seen a WT. Any chance a photo can be added it sounds like a very uniqe player.
#5
I've never seen a WT. Any chance a photo can be added it sounds like a very uniqe player.
#5
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Rob Doorack
Here's a link to Well Tempered Labs' web site which has photos of their turntables, explanations of the design features, etc.
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Bob Edwards
Alex--
My comments were aimed more at Mark--I thought he was just a bit....condescending to what may be the most enlightened hifi forum on the web.
I am, as I said, delighted that you found a TT you really like. As I said, they can be very difficult. And I am very happy to hear about your, and others, experiences with alternate equipment lines. Life would be very boring if we agreed on everything, n'est-ce pas?
Tim--name me ONE turntable that does not have "fundamental problems." Certainly the LP12 does, but so do the P9, Xerxes, the WT's, the Goldmund Reference, the 100K Rockport, etc. Also, I'd hardly say the P9 design "started from where the LP12 left off."
ALL of hifi is opinion and preference, coupled with economics. So let's please not try to denigrate someone's choice simply because you prefer something else.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards
My comments were aimed more at Mark--I thought he was just a bit....condescending to what may be the most enlightened hifi forum on the web.
I am, as I said, delighted that you found a TT you really like. As I said, they can be very difficult. And I am very happy to hear about your, and others, experiences with alternate equipment lines. Life would be very boring if we agreed on everything, n'est-ce pas?
Tim--name me ONE turntable that does not have "fundamental problems." Certainly the LP12 does, but so do the P9, Xerxes, the WT's, the Goldmund Reference, the 100K Rockport, etc. Also, I'd hardly say the P9 design "started from where the LP12 left off."
ALL of hifi is opinion and preference, coupled with economics. So let's please not try to denigrate someone's choice simply because you prefer something else.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Tim Jones
Bob - who's being condescending now? Did you actually read what I said?
Did I say there was any TT that did not have fundamental problems. Er, no. I was trying to make the sinmple point (although it obviously passed you by) that it was nice to see people challenging conventional ideas.
So let's please not try to denigrate someone's attempt to say something that you disagree with.
Tim
Did I say there was any TT that did not have fundamental problems. Er, no. I was trying to make the sinmple point (although it obviously passed you by) that it was nice to see people challenging conventional ideas.
So let's please not try to denigrate someone's attempt to say something that you disagree with.
Tim
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Alex S.
I learnt in the stand wars there's no point banging on. So, if anyone unfamiliar with or interested in the WT fancies a listen in the London area they're welcome.
Alex
Alex
Posted on: 21 April 2003 by Bob Edwards
Tim--
Did I read what you wrote? Yes.
Did you read everything I've written in this thread? I rather suspect not.
I don't think you read my comments in the manner I intended. My first post to Alex was a congratulatory one. Finding the right TT for a given person and system can be difficult, and I am happy Alex and you have found the right TT for you, and that it was based on actually listening to them. That is a decision model that seems to be less and less common.
Where I took exception was with your implication that the P9 is free of fundamental problems. It is not. And I must have missed denigrating anyone elses choice of TT.
And finally, we agree completely about challenging conventional wisdom. That is precisely the reason I sought out and heard a P9, owned a Xerxes X for some time, heard the WT Classic, and so on. As I said earlier, life would be boring indeed if we all agreed on everything.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards
Did I read what you wrote? Yes.
Did you read everything I've written in this thread? I rather suspect not.
I don't think you read my comments in the manner I intended. My first post to Alex was a congratulatory one. Finding the right TT for a given person and system can be difficult, and I am happy Alex and you have found the right TT for you, and that it was based on actually listening to them. That is a decision model that seems to be less and less common.
Where I took exception was with your implication that the P9 is free of fundamental problems. It is not. And I must have missed denigrating anyone elses choice of TT.
And finally, we agree completely about challenging conventional wisdom. That is precisely the reason I sought out and heard a P9, owned a Xerxes X for some time, heard the WT Classic, and so on. As I said earlier, life would be boring indeed if we all agreed on everything.
Best Regards,
Bob Edwards