Viable alternatives to a NAC 82?

Posted by: Alex S. on 10 October 2001

Are there any?

As you may know:

I have a 32.5 but realise its not the best thing since ready prepared Hovis.

I sold an 82 recently because I didn't like it.

I cannot avoid the police and aquire a 52 at the same time.

I have been told that DNM could provide a viable alternative for 82 type money.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Alex

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes

Where should we pitch it Alex?

If a flatcap is 1, Hicap is 5 and Supercap is 10

where would you put the MAD-cap?

Andy.

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Alex S.

or Paul S. will chuck this in the Loony Bin.

Alex

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Rico

Steve

I think it was a DM30? I'm not sure about the Densen nomenclature, but it's a big-assed dual-mono power amp with about an inch thick of perspex on the front. Two capped toroids inside, and four sanken output modules. Girly round-earth bi-wiring jacks on the back.

Haven't heard the pre-amp, this was running passive CD, and EAR phono pre for the black stuff. All into AE2's.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes

Anyway, any of our ramblings could be quite easily dismissed, you prefer 32.5's to 82's and I thought Trampolinn's were great things for years!

I think ignorance can be bliss sometimes, the unused bits of a supercap would bug me, although I don't have any doubt of the obvious sonic benefits.

It's just VFM for me is more than sonic benefits. There are a number of products I would refuse to buy on those grounds alone.

Fortunately I have other methods of acheiving the same benefits.

Andy.

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Martin Payne

My dealer recently took back the first ever 82 they sold as p/ex for something else.

Apparently, the sound is significantly different to a modern 82, much leaner and more forward.

Maybe it's just that it's nearing it's first 10-year service?

Still, makes you think though.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 11 October 2001 by Claus

Ade,

82 is much better with 2 Hicaps than one. I did this upgrade myself almost a year ago.

Compared to a s/h price of ~400£ adding 2nd Hicap is really great value. And as you mentioned it's quite easy to find a s/h Hicap at a good price, whereas SCap's are far between and still expensive (which seems quite natural btw).

For me, this is absolutely a no-brainer.

Claus

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Alex S.

You spend the best part of 5 grand on an 82/Supercap and I'll do the same on a different preamplifier. Then we can compare the two.

Or we could play a different game which equates to my actual situation: I sell my 32.5/Supercap for about 1.9K and you go away with the money and buy a preamp that sounds better. Go on, you know you can.

Alex

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Alex S.

With a 52 you use 13/15ths of a Supercap which is a requirement for it to work at all. Total cost about 6K. Much better preamp and much better value than 82/Super.

I am not advising anyone not to use an S/Cap as a stepping-stone towards a 52, that's what I thought I was going to do. But then I started to look at things another way. I decided to draw a line under simply purchasing more expensive boxes and to explore other possibilities.

Alex

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Alex S.

It may not suit Naim as a company but I see no heresy as a consumer in asking whether using such a small percentage of a very expensive box makes good sense if one is not going to buy a 52.

It is a great shame that Naim has never considered it worthwhile building a Super-Hi-Cap, ie. a quieter, S-Cap style 2 rail supply for older preamps and 102s/82s. It could retail for about £1200-£1500 and make a lot of non 52 aspirants very happy. Imagine my joy at a 32.5/Super-Hi or others' at 82/2 Super-Hi.

So, if I don't have 3.5K to spend on a 52 I am left with a £150 preamp and a £2.4K power supply hardly being used, and you ridicule the fact that I might not consider this the best use of my resources.

Alex

ps I am not going to mention fractions or percentages anymore.

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Bruce Woodhouse

Since nobody has mentioned it has anyone tested these options with a 102? Just wondered how they improve matters.

I guess I am hoping to 'end up' with a 52 so buying a supercap makes sense as a building block but a 2nd hand HiCap would be lots cheaper for a short term option.

Bruce

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Alex S.

It is well known that adding remote control facility to any piece of equipment buggers the sound and it costs R&D, parts and therefore me money to unbugger it.

Given that I can be bothered to walk to the record player or use the CD remote I have, I would prefer in principle to spend that money on improved sound rather than on rectified sound.

Alex

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Steve Toy

You have just described the Densen DM 30, which they have now stopped making. I am eagerly awaiting the arrival (well, not until after I get my CDX) of its successor the B300XS, which will be a nice blind upgrade over my B300BS (Bog Standard).
I actually heard its partnering preamp, the DM20 at Paul Duerden's place (on Mana phase Four). At the time it was running a relatively humble Rotel RB981 (admittedly on Mana Phase Two), and it sounded brilliant.
Any guy who can get their hands on any DM series stuff is a very lucky guy! It also has a high WAF factor too.
BTW, bi-wiring is an option, it isn't compulsory, you know. In any case, the reason why Naim don't go in for bi-wiring must have something to do with the capacitance/inductance requirements for cabling, and the fact that this forms an integral part of the amplifier feedback circuitry.
Densen amps have zero negative feedback circuitry, so it is obviously not such an issue.
Some speakers benefit from bi-wiring, and others do not.
Densen's amps are good in that although fussy with regards interconnects, they are happy driving any speaker on the planet - as long as the speaker can cope with the sheer current on tap.
The bi-wiring option further facilitates the otimal performance of any speaker it is asked to drive.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 12 October 2001 by Alex S.

I have heard that Densen have near zero service or customer support in the UK.

What do you say?

Alex

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Alex S.

Fair enough about the servicing.

Basically, I have an open mind. If I can improve the sound for no money or even at a saving (by using funds from selling 32.5/Super) then I'll do it. If I can't I'll stay as I am and wait for a 52. Problem is, with sprog 3 it could be a long wait.

I'm not unhappy with 32.5/SC, its just that if I can keep the pr&t and add some 'hi-fi' virtues then I'll be even happier. Of course, I am not willing to sacrifice the former to any degree in order to achieve any amount of the latter. A big ask but worth asking all the same.

Much as I like Naim they are not the only people who make great sounding hi-fi, surely.

Before I'm banished please remember that whatever I do I'll still have 8K's worth of Naim boxes!

Alex

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I wanted great PR&T and I also wanted a focussed soundstage which you don't get below an 82 if you go down the Naim route.
I would have stuck with Densen and not even bothered with Naim - until I started auditioning CD players.
Densen just doesn't cut the mustard at all regarding CDPs, and Naim ofer the best value for money, IMHO.
The Densen amps were designed with Naim CD players in mind anyway.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by BrianD

Alex

Do I understand correctly in that you're thinking of scrapping the 32.5/supercap to buy an alternative preamp to use with your 250?

In this situation I would investigate a completely new amplifier rather than mix the makes of pre and power. I haven't heard 'new' designs from companies other than Naim for a few years now so I can only recommend *manufacturers* (not products) on their reputation. Based on this, an alternative to Naim that should work with the rest of your system is Exposure. I've heard some Exposure gear over the years and I think it's the next best to Naim. I've also heard good things about the Creek range although I don't know if it's in 32.5/supercap league. Just a thought. Could be worth an audition and I think they'd both leave you some cash for baby wipes.
Bri

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Tuan

Lately I notice that there are discussions regarding the merit/pricing/effectiveness/power distubution and use of various models of Naim power supply on the Naim pre-amps/CD players. As most of us are just users (some of more experience than the others) we dont really know for sure how the total power (let's say from a 500 VA transformer) of a super-cap is distributed amongst the power lines. I think for such postings, Naim Audio should response to provide some understanding (at a low technical level) to the people on this forum. This will surely promote a good relationship between end-users and the company.

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Alex S.

I would like technical info too and a serious explanation as to why a Super-Hi has not been made.

I know that Naim recommends using their pres with other powers and not the other way round. I have had guarantees that my 250 will not blow up if I introduce it to dnm or dynavector pres although I've been warned the DV may not sound its best.

What is the official Naim line on this? Or, probably better, the unofficial one.

I don't think I'm trolling since I ask honest advice for my particular situation. I will never recommend splitting Naim pre and power on this forum, never have, never will.

Dnm is interesting since the preamp box stays pretty much the same and one simply upgrades from PSU 1 to 2 to 3. They look like something knocked up in a garage and I don't yet know what they sound like.

The DV may need DV power to go with it - we'll see. I have an open mind on everything, just need to pay for baby wipes and keep the rest of the family happy. My wife draws the line on an 18K (total replacement cost) hi-fi, and surely she has a point.

Alex

ps I have decided to limit myself to either dnm, DV, a forum unmentionable or simply keep what I have. If 32.5/Super/250 sounds best I'll gladly keep it. Until Round 2 of course.

[This message was edited by Alex S. on SATURDAY 13 October 2001 at 21:22.]

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Tuan

Hi Alex,

First, if there is choice to to be made between baby wipes and Naim boxes (laughs - all of us need to laugh sometime too) I go for baby wipes anytime.
Secondly, I have the CD3/92R/flatcap/Nap 250 (well lower grade than yours hehe) and I am quite happy with it. I hope this would make you feel good as your combo is pretty "gooood" already. Mike Hanson lends me his 82/power supply to test it out for more than a week (and the 82 is still with me as of today) -- Thank you Mike!!! The bottom line is that I like mine and I am happy (even the listening tests show clearly that the 82 is much better -- so what???). Just sit back and enjoy the music Alex.

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by BrianD

quote:
I don't think I'm trolling since I ask honest advice for my particular situation. I will never recommend splitting Naim pre and power on this forum, never have, never will

Alex

I don't think you're trolling and I can't imagaine anyone reading this thread would think you are. With regard the splitting of Naim pre/power amps. I just wouldn't do it. No particular reason, I just don't think I'd mix any manufacturers pre/power amps.

Bri

Posted on: 13 October 2001 by Alex S.

Tuan

May I paraphrase the inimatable MH: 'I am happy, I'm just seeing if I can be even more happy.'

The only difference is that Mike's extra happiness has cost about 15 grand and I'm hoping to get mine for nothing.

Brian

My instinct (and practice for 15 years) was not to split. But now I'm adopting a more empirical, proof in the pudding approach. If it doesn't work, fine. If it does work, great. If the whole lot blows up, at least I have verbal contracts to get the whole lot fixed for nothing. This would be a bore but at least system 2 could provide music and system 3 (now in a cupboard) could do the AV at home.

ps Have just noticed that 3 of your goals were not scored against a real goalkeeper and that T Henry qualifies for miss of the season (along with all his other misses).

Alex

Posted on: 14 October 2001 by BrianD

quote:
Have just noticed that 3 of your goals were not scored against a real goalkeeper

Ask me how much I care. If a club doesn't have the resources to have 2 fit goalkeepers that's their problem. Did you notice that the first one was offside too?

quote:
and that T Henry qualifies for miss of the season (along with all his other misses).

Maybe so, he's still a world class player though.

Brian

Posted on: 14 October 2001 by John G.

Alex,

I would check out Exposure 13, 21, 4 and sort out your support situation.

Good Luck

Posted on: 14 October 2001 by Alex S.

How right you probably are.

But to continue with your analogy, surely you don't suggest that I should hack the wife to bits and fit new connectors instead?

Alex