Poor bugger

One wonders about the circumstances. Why was he targeted? Why did he run? Was he an illegal immigrant thinking he was avoiding forcible deportation?

Andrew

From what I've read (Washington Post online) he was seen leaving a house that was under surveillance in connection with the bombing - wearing a heavy coat on a warm day etc.

Plainclothes police chased the man onto an underground train on Friday after he ignored warnings to stop, shooting him five times in the head because they feared he was carrying a bomb and was going to detonate it.

Source : http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050723/325/fo0ru.html

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Plainclothes police chased the man onto an underground train on Friday after he ignored warnings to stop, shooting him five times in the head because they feared he was carrying a bomb and was going to detonate it.

Source : http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050723/325/fo0ru.html

Poor bugger. I bet he regrets it even more than the Metropolitan Police.

Put yourself in his shoes.
In a fairly violent part of london, you leave your flat,& a bunch of guys in plain clothes start running after you shouting at you to stop & waving guns about. Personally, I'd run like f**k. What about you?

Andrew - He was in the country legally, but, on the other hand, he did run when asked to stop. However, that's not to say he was implicitly guilty of something. It's tragic really.

I think the met are pretty well damned if they do and damned if they don't on this one. If they hadn't shot the guy then he probably would have turned out to be a suicide bomber and we'd have more people dead (sod's law, and all that). While stupidity doesn't merit the death sentence, I think in this day and age if you flee the police into the underground, you might expect to be shot.

That said, there are a number of questions that arise. The police weren't surveilling a house, it was a block of flats, so quite why they were trailing this man needs to be answered.


regards,

Tam

I feel somewhat uneasy about this.

On the one hand, in the current climate, extreme measures are perhaps necessary. But at what cost?

Seemingly an innocent man is dead.

Questions to be asked and questions to be answered.

Michael

I think that we're all feeling uneasy, but what is the alternative?

The man was dressed oddly (or so we're told) and, given that he's been in the country for three years and must be presumed to know what's been going on in London over the past fortnight, why did he vault over the ticket barrier and run down an escalator and onto a train, when challenged?

If the Police hadn't acted as they did, in all the circumstances, how many "innocent" people may have died on that train if the man had been what the Police feared he was?

G

This is a horrible catch 22 position for all concerned.

The cops have to take out a suspect if they believe he is likely to set off a bomb.

But what if they get it wrong?

We still do not know all the facts about Friday but consider this scenario:

You have moved abroad, you understand the language but you are still in a foreign country. You are set upon by men wearing civilian clothing waving guns. Are you necessarily going to think straight. You either stand still or you are going to run for your life. Remember you are likely to be panicking faced with this scenario. Will you comprehend the shouts from the gun waving men? Or will you be confused.

Just a thought.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
The man was dressed oddly (or so we're told) and, given that he's been in the country for three years and must be presumed to know what's been going on in London over the past fortnight, why did he vault over the ticket barrier and run down an escalator and onto a train, when challenged?

Surely anyone with some intelligence and common sense would realise that, with what had happened a day before, it was a damned stupid thing to run from someone with a gun - regardless of whether you thought they were a mugger OR Police? How much gun crime is there in Britain? OK, there's some, but it's still more likely to be a copper than a robber.

He MUST have understood the words "stop" "police" FFS? Sorry, but I fail to see the Police did anything wrong except maybe using more than 2 bullets (2 in the head is easily enough to kill someone - 1's not sure enough). AND OF COURSE - assuming they'd pulled a badge after or during asking him to stop.

Police are human too - American cops shoot people by mistake EVERY DAY ffs.

Sure, he's innocent, and it's a tragedy, but he should NOT have run - simple as that - not in THAT climate London's under right now. Sorry if that's harsh.

I have an asian friend visiting me in London over the summer and im beggining to wonder if its such a good idea.

As people have said though it really is a catch 22 situation.

next time im in a hurry to get a train im doing no more than a brisk walk.

The plot thickens - apparently according to the BBC his visa had expired, so technically he shouldn't even have been here.

That doesn't make it right though...

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Andrew - He was in the country legally, but, on the other hand, he did run when asked to stop.

NOT if the BBC site is to be believed - his VISA had expired, so he shouldn't have been here at all... That's no excuse to shoot him, but it explains why he pegged it down the escalator.

Is your old Brazillian life at home that bad that you have to run to avoid being sent home though??? After all, he wasn't here on asylum papers was he?

quote:

Originally posted by Ankor:
next time im in a hurry to get a train im doing no more than a brisk walk.

Surely the problem wasn't running, but failing to stop when hailed. OTOH, might be a good idea for everyone to stop listening to their iPod on the train, so that they can hear any shouted instructions!

Perhaps that's why Apple really made the iPod phones a bright white.


BTW, the BBC are reporting that he may have run due to his visa status. Apparently he was working in the UK and sending money to his sick father, when his (possibly expired) student visa didn't allow him to do this.

cheers, Martin

Gawd save me from barrack room lawyers!

Dom,

Quite right, he was apparently not here legally. When I wrote that post (on Sunday) the news was saying he was, but that now appears not to have been the case. That said, according to radio 4, his family dispute this, but it does now seem likely his visa had indeed expired. Which would explain why he ran.

I really think it's one of those tragic instances where all the circumstances combine in just the right was for the worst possible outcome.


regards,

Tam

Tam

Really? I think that, if I were in Rio with my visa expired after bombs on public transport and were confronted by men carrying guns on entering a pulic transport station, I'd hit the ground pretty damned fast with my hands behind my head.

G

Two further comments:

As I understand it this guy had been pinned down before being shot. Is this true? If so how long had he been pinned down before he was shot (executed???)?

Given that this guy was shot on a tube train with numerous other people on the carriage let alone the station I find it odd that there are so few eye witness reports. The papers usually have them coming out of the woodwork to tell their story.

Graham,

Good point. Then again, all that assumes he was thinking rationally. Probably wasn't.


regards,

Tam

I think that we should all agree that it was a crop of shite.

The Police were trying their best.

And it's a fucking shame that some "innocent" died.

But the alternative was horrid.

G

"graham55 for PM!"

"A dollop of sense in an ocean of tripe!"

Seconded!

Any chancer will now not be lulled into a false sense of security in believing that the UK police will take any shit compared to that of elsewhere.

When I first went to live in France in 1989 I was told (at a 3-day briefing to start my assistantship in French schools) that unlike in the UK you should be aware of the fact that the French police take no shit for the simple reason that they don't have to...

They carry guns and are allowed to use them if you don't stop when ordered to do so. The problem here in the UK now (what with non-uniformed council officers being empowered to issue fines etc. for dropping litter) is that the boundaries become blurred. Thus when some guy crosses said boundaries without knowing the full consequences, and somebody gets hurt/unexpectably penalised (or worse) we've all got reason to complain.

ALL law enforcement officers should now wear uniforms (except on covert operations) and carry guns - just like everywhere else.

What an almost impossible position the Police are in.

If they do, they're fucked.

If they don't , they're fucked.

We need some serious protection from this scum so let's give Plod a bit of support, eh?

Ian