New 250 against olive 135's

I changed from olive 135's to new 250 and thought it was an upgrade. The new 250 is faster, a bit louder, a bit more upfront but smoother as well.

Dev,

Any difference in transient speed? The 135's are capable of 500VA swings and the new 250 is rated at 400VA.

Steve

IMO, 135s are faster on attacks but releases also fade away faster. The sustain is longer on new 250, it gives more smoothness. The 250 is more subtil and has more drive capability.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

Steve

I've had both, and currently run a new 250 into SBL's (as I did the 135's)

I'd say that the 135's were faster, two dimensional and a bit ragged by comparison.

The new 250 is sweeter and delivers a better sound-stage in width and depth. It's a more sophisticated, layered sound and easier to listen to.

This is really all a matter of personal taste. If you like your music a bit 'edge of the seat and in-yer-face' you'll prefer the 135's.

Good luck.

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Originally posted by Manu:
IMO, 135s are faster on attacks but releases also fade away faster. The sustain is longer on new 250, it gives more smoothness. The 250 is more subtil and has more drive capability.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

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Would it be possible to say the 135's are faster because they have better control on speakers? The so called "longer sustain" may in fact be the result of lack of control (not fast and accurate enough) in comparison to the 135's.

Having read through the above posts a couple of times I feel that what is coming across is that the 135s are pureist Flat Earth and the new 250 is heading into Round Earth territory. I'll have to go and listen for myself.

Yours in Music

Syd

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Originally posted by slim:
the comparison you should make is 135v300 this is much more valid.

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Not if you're looking at buyng it aint, You can no doubt get a pair of olive 135's s'h for less than the price of a new 250 so the comparison is valid.

You both have a point IMO. It is valid comparing like for like at new prices. It does say a hell of a lot about the new 250 that it competes effectively with 135's.

From a second hand point of view (for 135's) Vs a new 250 then this is similar money and is an obvious comparison. Additional thought should be given to the extra 135 costs to get serviced and re-capped and the resale value of 135 over time in comparison to the new stuff which is beginning its life on the market not ending it.

After listening comparatively to both 135s and 300 in a full Naim system plus LP12 front end, IMO the 135s do appear somehat "livelier" than the 300, which has been described elsewhere as relatvely "laid back".

Perhaps the differences can be described by saying that the 135s emphasize the leading edge of the note but are more limited in relaying that same note's decay. Hence the "livelier" characteristic of the 135s. When I first heard the 300, I felt that the 135s recreated the feeling of a "performance" more accurately but having lived with the traditional "Naim sound" for so long, it is no wonder that I would be taken aback by the different emphasis of the 300. (Those 300s certainly created a bigger - and better? - illusion of space and image.) Is the 300 then just a "Levinson" (or other high quality "round-earth" amp) in a Naim box? No, but certainly, the 300 is much closer to the characteristics of "Levinson" than the 135s ever were and, to a degree, these differences between 135 and 300 could be described as "flat earth" vs "round earth".

The more important question is which is more accurate in recreating the artist's musical performance? Any comment would of course be very subjective. My point would be that the the "new Naim sound" appears to a move in a different direction (from the "traditional" Naim characteristics) which many, no doubt, will see as an "improvement". Certainly Naim must see it that way.

Listen and decide for yourself.

Paul

[This message was edited by Paul B on TUESDAY 08 July 2003 at 14:06.]

I’d like you take into consideration the one more level of rack needed for the mono amps.

Get it that way. You have Fraims or some similar things, two Bases + 4 levels in the optimal arrangement: on the left side CD and Pre, leaving the Base empty. On the right side the two PS, plus the 250 on the Base. Any experiment proves that putting anything on the other Base seriously degrades the sound. (Of course, that’s what the 250 just do in this present arrangement!)

If changing to 135s, the question arises, where to put the second box. There is no place for it but on the other Base. This has the additional drawback of bringing at least one PS in the proximity of the “soft” electronics.

This matter should be calculated if we want a valid test. It can be defined as a “plus” on the side of the 250. Or, alternatively, you should pay £300 for a new level of Fraim.

I did not yet make the comparision but the 135s must be THAT better to neutralize this drawback, I’m afraid.

graphoman

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Originally posted by Paul B:
Perhaps the differences can be described by saying that the 135s emphasize the leading edge of the note but are more limited in relaying that same note's decay. Hence the "livelier" characteristic of the 135s.

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Tuan,
That`s exactly what i`ve experienced. I don`t think it is a matter of speaker control. The 135 (like the olive 250) "kills" the end of the note decay. The longer decay doesn't look like an artefact or a ringing problem, it is IMO a sign of more precision, more detail.
At this level of quality (135 or 250), i think it is a matter of personal taste: fast attacks or long decays?

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

My 135s do not kill the decay of sounds.I get plenty of space, air, ambience etc etc. The sound I have could never be described as aggressive (or with rough edges) If that is your experience may I humbly suggest you have a mains related problem!!!

Laurie S

I agree Laurie, although it may not have appeared that way in my posting. The question remains: which of the two designs/amps recreates the performance of live musicians more accurately. IMO, based on my somewhat limited experience, the 135s appear to. To me, elements such as "space, air and soundstage" are of limited importance and secondary compared to creating the "attack" and "drive" of live musicians. These secondary elements do in fact appear with the older gear especially when you move into an active system. However, IMO most "round earth" gear so emphasizes space and air that the musical performance almost becomes secondary. The "image" becomes all important - note how reviewers talk endlessly about space and soundstage - and it is a creation that is largely static. I do not wish to be lulled to sleep, to exaggerate greatly, nor to listen to the "black spaces" between musicians but I do want to to "feel" the performance of the musicians as best as possible through a home audio system. Naim gear has for me traditionally supplied that emotional connection to the performers in way that no other gear I have heard has done.

The new Naim gear appears to try and create a "better" balance between the two viewpoints (round vs flat earth). It is a direction that I had not anticipated and it is one that I am not sure that I will pursue myself at this time. For the first time in many years I no longer lust after the newest and latest (oh I would probably want a 552/500 - not heard the 552 yet - but they are outside of what I am willing and able to pay anyway).

Paul

[This message was edited by Paul B on TUESDAY 08 July 2003 at 23:52.]

[This message was edited by Paul B on WEDNESDAY 09 July 2003 at 00:00.]

Paul -

I think you have an important point. When you hear someone playing (eg) a drumkit in a room, it's not the air or the blackness that hits you - it's the sheer shock, attack and dynamics. I've yet to hear anything do this better than the olive series.

I like the new kit a lot, but worry that it sounds more 'comfortable', and would cost a sod of a lot for CDS2/52/135 owners like me to get into.

Tim

Tim:

IMO the only logical step (although not heard myself so I am basing this on hearsay) would be to move to 552/500 from 52/135. I feel that the 252/300 is too much of a sideways step from 52/135 for my tastes. Another choice would be to go active with 135s which adds a whole other dimension again.

Paul

Laurie,
I've not said "agressive" or "rought edge" about the 135, it is not.
The word "kill" is a little "agressive", i agree. Paul B said it with more subtelity than me. My english still has to improve.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

You are all missing the point by critically analysing the note., decay, etc. What a load of rubbish. Having done the change - and I demoed the NAP300 as well - I felt teh new 250 was very close performance wise to the 300, but both are seriously ahead of the 135. By ahead I mean that the music is more exciting, but smoother and you can go a bit louder without sounding strained or the music sounding strained. The NAP500 is still the master, but a NAP250 is very good especially if you don't listen to techno 100% all the time really loud. This is into SBLs.

regards,

Dev

Paul B...I agree. Space ambience soundstaging etc are just some ingredients that go towards making the listening experience "believable". Other factors such as attack, dynamics etc are crucial too. If soundstaging etc are paramount, then why not switch to one of the "high end" US brands? The trick is to get the balance of qualities right.Since my mains mods, I get sounds that are frighteningly realistic. A (non audiophile) freind was watching TV with me recently. (I use an Arcam Delta 150 TV tuner). On the news, a lorry (with its engine ticking over) was in the background during a live interview. My friend rushed to the the window to pull back the curtains believing a lorry was parking on my drive. He could not believe that the sound he had heard was coming from my Hi-Fi.
During radio plays, I have frequently spun round in shock on hearing a real voice that appeared to come from the door of my listening room. I could go on. I am trying to imagine what a different balance to the sound would do to this "believability"...I`ll have to listen for myself

Laurie S

matter of personal taste: fast attacks or long decays?

I want both! I feel Lauries point is important, and also we all have slightly different 135s in different ages, different versions etc. In my system they perform beautifully: they don't kill the decays too much and they don't emphasize the edges too much. However I can understand what is meant by "killing decays", because it's not 100% natural the way e.g. piano notes clear off. But then: the difference between a note played on a real Steinway grand compared to a recording played back on any system is such huge that the question wether the amps kill decays or not is almost not relevant.

On the other hand: mentioned recordings sound very close to the real experience if we bear in mind that it's "only" playback, and it arouses even more respect that Naim has achieved such a high level. In my view they have reached to connect people to the music. This is quite something, isn't it!!!

Of the new series I know only the successors of the slimline kit, eg. nait5, cd5, pre/power, flat2. I find them much improved over the slimline kit: it sounds more "oily" and clean but also more refined and more of all that round earth stuff. I don't have the feeling that this necesaarily leads to less prat or less of what you call "traditional naim"...

- Jun

Dev:

You may be right that this is all rubbish but I am trying to understand why the new Naim amps are smoother and, from my viewpoint, less exciting than the older design. Could it not have something to do with the way the amp delivers the actual note from its initial release followed by its subsequent decay? Isn't that what amplifiers actually do?

Past criticism of Naim from "round earth" advocates was often that Naim amps emphasized the leading edge of the note, thus making it more exciting, but the decay was then said to be truncated and thus Naim amps were "less detailed" and lacked "smoothness". Naim at the time certainly disputed this perception and I remember JV being adamant that his design of the 250 "got it right" and others were simply wrong.

However, Naim has now apparently moved in a direction to find what they obviously must now perceive as a "better" balance of these qualities. You obviously agree with their efforts and purchased the 250-2. I, and others, including reviewers Paul Messenger (review of the 300) and Chris Binns (review of the new 250) in HiFi+ (Issue 22), have noted that the newer amps are "...a little too laid back..." (Paul Messenger, p.50) and (..it [the 250] can be too polite." (Chris Binns, p. 57). This is in the context of comparisons to the 135 and old 250 respectively. (I had not read these reviews until after I had heard the 300 but they do confirm, in part, my perception of the new amp design.)

However, taking short quotes out of the context of the entire review leaves a different impression than that from reading the entire review. I would encourage you, if you wish, to read these reviews. In essence, both reviewers are very, very positive about these new Naim amps but they do note the different approach that Naim has taken.

Paul

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the difference between a note played on a real Steinway grand compared to a recording played back on any system is such huge that the question wether the amps kill decays or not is almost not relevant.

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Jun:

Absolutely right. Music played on any audio system pales in comparison to the real thing. The best way to hear music is that which is performed live (well at least for classical and jazz - I can't say this for much else.)

It is interesting especially how the piano is so difficult to reproduce accurately on any audio system. I have read comment (but I cannot remember the specifics) that direct to disc recordings of the 1930's and 1940's (before audiotape) more accurately captured the attack and decay of the notes played on the piano. Audiotape, it was said, blurred the notes creating almost a "legato" effect when compared to direct disc recordings. This is an attribute of the recording process not the performer's intent. This also parallels what we are talking about with regards to music reproduction and Naim amps. The old 250/135 recreated/emphasized the intitial attack of the note with a perhaps a shorter decay thus creating the "live" feel, while the newer 300/250 holds on to the note longer creating a "smoother" effect. Hmmm...interesting or rubbish!

Paul

[This message was edited by Paul B on WEDNESDAY 09 July 2003 at 17:04.]

the way the amp delivers the actual note from its initial release followed by its subsequent decay? Isn't that what amplifiers actually do?

The amps do not "know" what they deliver. They just amplify a curve and try not to alter it but deliver it with more power e.g. more volts or amperes etc. The beginning of a note in the middle of a piece is just a part of a very multifarious curve. Our cognition creates the experience from this curve, that's the reason why we "think" that this or that amp delivers the beginning of notes different from another amp. We can conclude that e.g. a 135 handles the curve more or less accurate than another amp.

Example: if there is silence and then you have a very loud single piano note, the amp has to follow (and to amplify) the curve very fast because otherwise it would slow down the speed of the edge. The thing is that what the amp has to follow is the piano note with it's typical curve, but you cannot tell the amp "please follow the edges correctly and do not kill the decays", you only can tell the amp to follow any curves as accurate as possible. The deflection from the original curve is audible as harshness or any other effect such as "kill decay" or "emphasize edges". Since unfortunately there is still no perfect amp, the developer tries to put the deflections where he thinks they disturb least. Now, if you hear the same single piano note played together with orchestra in the middle of a piece, the amp still has to follow a single but very complicated curve. It's not the beginning of that curve, and it's not the beginning of a new event for the amp, but it's the beginning of a new event in our cognition - so it's still important that the amp follows the curve as accurate as possible.

The ability of the amp to create correct beginnings of the notes with the right amount of prat, splash or whatever along with the ability to reproduce the very delicate decays of all the notes is the result of an amp which has the ability to follow the curves at any output (volts, amperes) and at any gradient with the necessary amount of speed and energy. And it's the result of a developer who exactly knows what ability of the amp is important to allow our cognition to create an experience as similar to the reality as possible. The developer has exactly to know which parameters corresponds with which experiences...

Congrats to Naim!!

- Jun

(Sorry for my english, it sounds a bit nebulous, but I hope I got it right. Please correct me if I am wrong!)

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul B:

However, taking short quotes out of the context of the entire review leaves a different impression than that from reading the entire review. I would encourage you, if you wish, to read these reviews. In essence, both reviewers are very, very positive about these new Naim amps but they do note the different approach that Naim has taken.

Paul

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Paul,

I read both reviews and ended up scratching my head a little. The only conclusion I came to is that when first switched on the character of the new Naims a little soft and relaxed, in fact it stays like that for a least three weeks from new - well mine did anyway. Old Naim equipment was always a bit harsh on switch on but then became smoother. As I have lived with the 250 for a while now I would say character wise it is similar to the old Naims but with the ADDED virtues that I mentioned in my first post (louder, smoother, faster, etc)

regards,

Dev

ps. I didn't want to cast doubt on others with my previous comment of "rubbish" in terms of note delay etc but I feel that I caan hear this less than the other stuff.