Bach performed on the intended instruments.

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 13 July 2007

Bach performed on the intended instruments.

In the recent Goldberg thread the issue of playing Bach’s Harpsichord music on the Piano was discussed.

It is a mistaken notion to think that simply transferring the performance of music designed to be effective on the harpsichord with its particular sound world, and constraints, to the piano, which has a completely different sound world, and set of characteristics will not lead to a transformation of the resulting performance. This may well have a significant effect on the perceived emotional thrust.

Several clear examples of this transformation can be found when considering various Preludes and Fugues from Book One of the Well Tempered Clavier. Perhaps the most striking example is the Prelude in E Flat Minor, where the even dynamic of the individual notes of the harpsichord mean that a truly hushed pianissimo is impossible. The music seems tragic, stately, and most of all stoically noble. Two performances that are similar in outer details and yet show a slightly differing emotional effect are the two by Helmut Walcha. In about 1960 on a recording issued by EMI, the result is verging on the defiant, in its response to anguish, while the later DG performance shows a more emotionally tragic response, being just a little slower, and less forward moving in its progress, but still essentially a noble and brave one.

Compare this to one the most famous performances with a piano on records – that by Edwin Fischer, recorded by HMV – which achieves a still quietness that is not part of the harpsichord’s capacity at all. The effect is very different, being very quietly and smoothly played, seemingly slower, though the tempo is not much slower, and produces an effect of almost total resignation in the face of some immense sadness only relieved at the entry of the Fugue. Fischer was one of the great Bach players on the piano, and considering he was pioneering the modern revival of the music at a time when Bach was a great rarity in the concert hall, it is a great pleasure to have the chance to appreciate and enjoy his own response in pioneering modern performance of the music, but it is certain that this is not quite what Bach had in mind when he wrote the music. The harpsichord naturally guides the player to comprehend the basic nobility and strength in the music, and base their very performance on what becomes inevitable and natural when a harpsichord is used. A very slow tempo is impossible because the harpsichord’s shorter sustain would produce a disjointed effect, so a slowest possible tempo is set by the instrument, and it is one which Bach understood and anticipated. Then the clear tone of the harpsichord gives an impression of lucidity and emphasises the brighter thoughts that somehow the sadness can be born.

Another Prelude from Book One which shows how a piano actually cannot work in the same expressive way as a harpsichord is the D Major in some cases. I have two piano recordings and two on the harpsichord [the two from Walcha]. On the piano I have Fischer and Schnabel. Schnabel and Walcha take a very similar tempo here, and the effect is entirely different. The bass-line has the slightly odd tendency to sound like a sort of vamp on a pub piano – believe me once you hear it, it becomes an almost laugh out loud moment! – while Fischer is faster, and still keeps the sense of a swinging beat. Walcha on the harpsichord produces a gentle swing in the bass, which merely underscores the rather joyful writing in the upper voices.

To show balance I can think of two very similar performances – one on harpsichord and one on piano – where the pianist completely produces the emotional effect of a harpsichordist in the music. In the First Partita, Dinu Lipati’s famous EMI recoding not only mirrors Walcha’s harpsichord performance as to tempi very closely but gets similarly lucid and joyful results. It remains true that pianists frequently play the First Partita and leave the rest for very rare performances, while harpsichordists tend to play them all equally frequently. The reason is that by some miracle Bach has written a work that is utterly suitable for the piano in this case!

Really these examples show that performing the music on the piano leads to a quite small or even great degree of transformation of the effect the music has emotionally. Bach knew what he was aiming for, and if we are really interested in seeking out Bach’s musical intentions rather than great playing as an aim in itself, then we will find the greatest clues by listening to performances on the intended instrument.

The issues of staccato and detaché as well as dynamic are well covered in the post linked to here: Link

It would be interesting to consider how much work Bach expends on re-composing music for new instruments, which should silence arguments about the myth that his pragmatism led to him not worrying what instruments were used for his music, and the prime example here is the recasting of Violin Concertos for keyboards where the scoring of the accompaniment is in some case entirely reworked, rhythms and themes completely changed, and the whole key structure adjusted. I think this indicates that for Bach even the key is vital for the expressive effect, and that he felt different keys suited the expressive capacities of different instruments optimally. He was keen to open up the use of all the keys of keyboard instruments in his pioneering of something akin to the modern keyboard tuning used now, even temperament, while he fully understood and utilised how certain keys suited certain moods on strings and winds.

Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Cue wind and tumbleweeds Smile
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by bad boy dan:
Cue wind and tumbleweeds Smile


How do you mean??
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by GraemeH
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
quote:
Originally posted by bad boy dan:
Cue wind and tumbleweeds Smile


How do you mean??


It's a wry note of humor when something posted might be, how shall I put it, restricted in potential audience appeal.

Think deserted old western town from the cowboy era.....nobody there, nothing happening except the odd tumbleweed blowing through......Dan was suggesting that Fredriks post is the written equivalent of that.

Hope that helps.

Graeme
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by droodzilla
In reply to Dan, cue:
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by droodzilla
Trying again - cue:

GW Net
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

This may seem a bit dry [as words about music often do], but the result of such a questing philosophy will be the discovery of some truly phenomenal music making that might well be passed by if one simply come along with a view that "I like my Bach on the piano, and dislike the harpsichords, so that is the end to it."

The piano is cabable of revealing most of what Bach had in mind when the player is attuned to the music and its inherent style, and emotional world, whilst a great player at a harpsichord reveals things that are entirely foreign to what the piano was developed to do. The great compsers for the piano fully utilised aspects entirely foreign to the harpsichord of course. Imagine Debusy on a harpsichord! [Smiley].

It is a strange one, but I have found that even only mildly curious people are often amazed at the effect of a great performance of Bach on the hsrpsichord, and want to know more. I do this by fitting in just one piece among their choises if they visit me. Unfortunately I had lost a good few great Bach performances on the harpsichord, because they want to take the recording away and listen carefully for themselves!

The is a sort of open minded Damascene Conversion to be achieved, but it has its significance in fully entering the world of Bach sweetly humain and very powerfully emotional music.

Calling a post, such mine above, dry and of limited appeal seems to indicate a closed mind on the subject, which is sad. Today I went to a most lovely house of a Forum member and we listened to a short number of pieces by Bach, Mendelsohnn, Handel and Beethoven, and then some beautifully perfomed and musicianly Country and Western. I would not rate my choices as being more significant than my host's!

I listened and enjoyed what was music, entirely new to me. I must add that the genre is not new to me. But no pre-judgement on my part would cause me to somehow fail to enjoy music just because it would not actually be my first choice for quiet listening on my own!

Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:
Originally posted by bad boy dan:
Cue wind and tumbleweeds Smile


When you have posted an equally erudite offering you can feel free to have a pop at Fredrik's views but not otherwise or you just look like a prat.
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Acad(Crazy name crazy guy)you dont tell me what to do,so button it.
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by droodzilla
Oi, Dan - zip it!!
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by droodzilla
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Droo,

On the other thread you mentioned that you thought I had a sort of platonic attitude to replay and listening, which is certainly true, and also that you thought I definately did not, with regard to performance practice, which is also true. Then you said that your had a reversed view of the two aspects.

I am quite happy to just imagine the music, or more rarely read the score straight off. Sometimes the only way to get a piece of music out of my head is to sit down and listen to it on the gramophone! This is a problem if I am away on holiday! I also enjoy the attempt at getting as close as possible to the sound world and expressive possiblities the composer had in mind in performance. But in reality I also can enjoy performances that are not so very close to this on occasion. I have enjoyed Bach played on the piano, even the Art Of Fugue arranged for orchestra... And there are some anachronistic performances which I simply think overcome their apparent performance style limitations, though they have to be very inspired to survive with me.

One case in point that seems to work is when the harpsichord concertos are recorded with a piano and orchestra. Edwin Fischer and JM Pires achieve tremendous results in these.

The best intended instrument recording I have of one of these is a live tape from Radio Three of R Scheidegger and the HM Linde Consort at the the Queen Elisabeth Hall in London [1985] in the D Minor Concerto, where everything went extemely well, and the BBC got a beautiful balance - better than any commercial recording I have come across. The result is one of my favourite Bach concerto recordings. I wish EMI/Virgin had set about a series of these concertos with these artists at the time. It would have been great: They recorded the Brandenburgs at the time with the Linde Consort and Scheidegger, and this set is till one of my top three, though it has long been withdrawn, sadly. The other favourites are the long withdrawn set led by August Wenzinger, and the still available set led by Adolf Busch.

For some reason the Orchestral Suites that were performed by HM Linde for EMI seem less involving, but I think this is down to the cavernous recording which itself undermines the expressive aspect of the playing. The Brandenburg Concerto recordings are ideal. The Suites seem as if addressed ad hominem rather than to the individual listener...

ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by droodzilla
Hi Fredrik

Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I would have replied to your original post sooner but:

a. Today has been more of a hi-fi dayn than a music day (fitted NACA5 jumpers to my Spendors; picked up a hi-line for home demo).

b. I wanted to listen to the preludes you mentioned, before replying, but - unusually - I haven't felt like listening to Bach today.

c. I've been too busy posting stupid photos of Zippy, from Rainbow.

I don't have any of the recordings you refer to, but I do have 4 WTCs: Schiff, Hewitt, Gould and van Asperan - first three are piano, the last is harpsichord. The Gould is weird and wilful, even by his standards (I'm a fan of his Goldbergs), but is till interesting to compare with the others.

Your comment about the pub piano vamp sound in the D Major Prelude is interesting, as this is something I'd previously noticed in the Schiff, without calling it that. Hewitt seems to get more of the gentle swing you refer to, as does van Asperen, whereas Gould goes in the other direction, and exaggerates the left hand part. So, based on my sample of WTCs, I see what you're getting at here, but the Hewitt shows that the difficulties are not insuperable on the piano.

As for the E Flat Minor Prelude, again Gould's version is full of eccentricity - odd pauses, and the like - I might grow to like it, but can't see it ever being my top choice. I enjoyed all three of the other versions. Hewitt's is the most pianistic, as she fully exploits the dynamic range of her instrument; van Asperen perhaps, coaxes more dynamics than is usual from the harpsichord, and Schiff, I think holds back on the piano to create a more even flow. The lesson I take from this is that a number of equally euphonious and pleasing approaches are possible, even if some of these do not square with Bach's intentions, or contemporary practice.

Which brings me to the heart of the matter:

quote:

Bach knew what he was aiming for, and if we are really interested in seeking out Bach’s musical intentions rather than great playing as an aim in itself, then we will find the greatest clues by listening to performances on the intended instrument.


This is where my Platonism (for want of a better word) comes in. Suppose, metaphorically speaking, that Bach discovered this music - by (metaphor, again) reading the mind of God, or whatever. Then Bach's intentions, etc, are not the final word on the music. ting it, then works are not reducible to his intentions. Instead, Bach's view of this abstract musical object, is just one of many possible views. This ned not conflict with the notion that Bach was especially gifted - we can easily accept that Bach was - as it were - an especially skilled draftsman when it came to representing this musical landscape. The landscape analogy seems apt to me. A great musical work is like a landscape that can be approached, or pictured, from many different directions. Bach was incredibly gifted at drawing out the most beautiful views of this landscape, but other views - of the same thing - are possible, may delight us, and may even help us to come to a fuller appreciation and understanding of the landscape as a whole. This is certainly the sense I get listening to different versions of WTC on piano/harpsichord, and to transcriptions of (e.g.) Art of Fugue for guitar.

The discovery metaphor opens up these avenues of thought, whereas the more common creator metaphor tends to equate the music with the composer's intentions - which is where you seem to be coming from.
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by TomK
quote:
Originally posted by bad boy dan:
Cue wind and tumbleweeds Smile


Sorry Dan this isn't where the proposed Spice Girls reunion is discussed. If classical music, particularly of the type played on original instruments isn't to your liking, perhaps this isn't the forum for you.
Fredrik's contributions to these forums have been consistently interesting and informative while yours have been ...exactly what? Please remind us. No offence meant obviously.
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tom, Thanks. Fredrik
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Droo,

What a lovely post, which I will attempt to make an answer to tomorrow. I have spent the last two hours buried in some more Bach!

You post immediately makes me question what I perceive about performance, because I totally agree that many differeing perspectives in performance deepen one's love, appreciation, and understanding of what the music is about. Tomorrow!

ATB from redrik
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by TomK
Fredrik,
Classical music isn't my main preference to be honest. However I absolutely adore Mozart. When I'm listening to him I feel I always know what's coming, one note in advance, because it's so natural and just what I'd have written if I had the talent. And apologies if that sounds daft but I know what I mean. I feel the same when I listen to Bruce Springsteen. It's like they've tapped into my brain and made something resonate.

Anyway I've got a few recordings of Mozart on original instruments and to be honest my feelings are mixed. Although I love them I'm not sure yet whether I prefer them to the more traditional, lush sounding versions most people recognise. And I say this after listening to them for 20 years! Perhaps I should stick with the Beatles. Maybe the end of A Day in the Life played on 18th century instruments would sound spectaclar.
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by Earwicker
Period instrument performance is still a thorny subject, even after people have been at it for decades (in the mainstream). I think it's particularly interesting how people have let authentic instruments guide them to a style of performance that, give or take a personal pinch, is shared by most practitioners - the sharper, faster dynamics, the tighter and sparser vibrato, the more prominent winds in orchestral pieces, for e.g.; it is interesting to see how people like Harnoncourt have translated the results of these experiments, if you like, into modern instrument performance.

The fly(s) in the authentic instrument ointment are that concert halls have got bigger and less resonant since the baroque, and in some cases, I think modern instruments represent improvements over older types one would be mad to ignore; the piano is the best example. (If Beethoven knew people were making replicas those old hammerklaviers when we have the modern concert grand, I'm sure he'd think we were nuts!) I seem to recall Brendel writing in one of his books something to the effect of 'people who insist Bach performances should be confined to old instruments should also insist that one travel to a baroque marble hall to hear them'. Practical considerations are important too!

Generally, now that we have the advantage of a wealth of period instrument recordings to go on, we can be free to use modern instruments, but in a more enlightened way. The period instrument experiment can help lead us closer to the truth. As always with musical performance, the most important things are the score and the virtuosity and immersion of the performer, with the tonal qualities of the instrument second to that. There's room for old and new, especially in recordings, where one can find a suitable acoustic environment in which to record period instruments.

Off the top of my head, some modern instrument recordings that are informed by period instrument practice that particularly impress me are Gidon Kremer's new recording of the Sonatas and Partitas, Murray Perahia's recording of the Goldberg Variations, and Harnoncourt's recording of the Paris Symphonies.

Fischer's recording of The 48 shows more amply than any other recording I can think of that one can dedicate oneself to the spirit of the message whilst throwing authenticity and historical scholarship to the winds!

EW
Posted on: 14 July 2007 by Huwge
Surely the most important thing is whether it sounds good and is appealing to the listener.

Notes on paper are an instruction or guide, not a definitive statement. If this were not the case, why would there be more than one of any musical piece available? Thus, it should be irrelevant what age / type of instrument is used. It is the connectivity between the artist and the listener that needs to be assessed.

I am sure Richard Rodgers would not be upset at Coltrane's variations on a theme of My Favorite Things. Indeed, he would probably have felt honoured that his music was able to stimulate such a great artist.

As for Bach, a favourite disc is the cello suites transcribed for double bass, as played by Edgar Meyer. Hopelessly wrong I guess, but I could give a rat's ass.

Huw
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by bad boy dan
To Fredrik Tom and all,

My jest was not a personal attack on Fredrick.

But he has been banging the same drum about Gould now for some time he clearly dislikes him,but rather than ignore any posts wich contain reference to him,he gets on his pedestal and tries to educate(with his undoubted knowledge)people that there is a better way,his original post some time ago about Gould was not erudite but spitefull.

All the best BB
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by GraemeH
The 'period instruments' debate is an interesting one. I am always reminded at times like this of Malcolm Sargeant's comment that he could not abide the harpsichord on one particular period instrument recording as it sounded like "...two skeletons copulating on a tin roof"....

Graeme
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Hutton:
Malcolm Sargeant's comment

I thought it was Thomas Beecham?
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by GraemeH
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Hutton:
Malcolm Sargeant's comment

I thought it was Thomas Beecham?


I think you are right Earwicker!
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Earwicker
It's very funny whoever said it! Big Grin
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by droodzilla
quote:
Notes on paper are an instruction or guide, not a definitive statement. If this were not the case, why would there be more than one of any musical piece available? Thus, it should be irrelevant what age / type of instrument is used. It is the connectivity between the artist and the listener that needs to be assessed.


Yes - to extend my landscape analogy, the score is a map of the musical terrain to be traversed. Bach's intentions, and the performance practices of his time represent one route through the terrain (maybe an especially attractive or interesting one). Neither should be identified with the thing (the music) itself.

It is like the Zen notion of not mistaking the finger pointing st the moon, for the moon itself.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by droodzilla
One other thought - the approach I've described helps to account for the feeling that Bach's music is unfathomably mysterious - it seems that we will never get to the bottom of it. This makes sense if the music is not the score, or the specific intentions of its composer, but something beyond either, that both point to in some approximate fashion.

I realise that this is based on the assumption that Bach's music is especially evocative of great mystery, but I do not believe that I'm alone in thinking that. Winker