Bach performed on the intended instruments.

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 13 July 2007

Bach performed on the intended instruments.

In the recent Goldberg thread the issue of playing Bach’s Harpsichord music on the Piano was discussed.

It is a mistaken notion to think that simply transferring the performance of music designed to be effective on the harpsichord with its particular sound world, and constraints, to the piano, which has a completely different sound world, and set of characteristics will not lead to a transformation of the resulting performance. This may well have a significant effect on the perceived emotional thrust.

Several clear examples of this transformation can be found when considering various Preludes and Fugues from Book One of the Well Tempered Clavier. Perhaps the most striking example is the Prelude in E Flat Minor, where the even dynamic of the individual notes of the harpsichord mean that a truly hushed pianissimo is impossible. The music seems tragic, stately, and most of all stoically noble. Two performances that are similar in outer details and yet show a slightly differing emotional effect are the two by Helmut Walcha. In about 1960 on a recording issued by EMI, the result is verging on the defiant, in its response to anguish, while the later DG performance shows a more emotionally tragic response, being just a little slower, and less forward moving in its progress, but still essentially a noble and brave one.

Compare this to one the most famous performances with a piano on records – that by Edwin Fischer, recorded by HMV – which achieves a still quietness that is not part of the harpsichord’s capacity at all. The effect is very different, being very quietly and smoothly played, seemingly slower, though the tempo is not much slower, and produces an effect of almost total resignation in the face of some immense sadness only relieved at the entry of the Fugue. Fischer was one of the great Bach players on the piano, and considering he was pioneering the modern revival of the music at a time when Bach was a great rarity in the concert hall, it is a great pleasure to have the chance to appreciate and enjoy his own response in pioneering modern performance of the music, but it is certain that this is not quite what Bach had in mind when he wrote the music. The harpsichord naturally guides the player to comprehend the basic nobility and strength in the music, and base their very performance on what becomes inevitable and natural when a harpsichord is used. A very slow tempo is impossible because the harpsichord’s shorter sustain would produce a disjointed effect, so a slowest possible tempo is set by the instrument, and it is one which Bach understood and anticipated. Then the clear tone of the harpsichord gives an impression of lucidity and emphasises the brighter thoughts that somehow the sadness can be born.

Another Prelude from Book One which shows how a piano actually cannot work in the same expressive way as a harpsichord is the D Major in some cases. I have two piano recordings and two on the harpsichord [the two from Walcha]. On the piano I have Fischer and Schnabel. Schnabel and Walcha take a very similar tempo here, and the effect is entirely different. The bass-line has the slightly odd tendency to sound like a sort of vamp on a pub piano – believe me once you hear it, it becomes an almost laugh out loud moment! – while Fischer is faster, and still keeps the sense of a swinging beat. Walcha on the harpsichord produces a gentle swing in the bass, which merely underscores the rather joyful writing in the upper voices.

To show balance I can think of two very similar performances – one on harpsichord and one on piano – where the pianist completely produces the emotional effect of a harpsichordist in the music. In the First Partita, Dinu Lipati’s famous EMI recoding not only mirrors Walcha’s harpsichord performance as to tempi very closely but gets similarly lucid and joyful results. It remains true that pianists frequently play the First Partita and leave the rest for very rare performances, while harpsichordists tend to play them all equally frequently. The reason is that by some miracle Bach has written a work that is utterly suitable for the piano in this case!

Really these examples show that performing the music on the piano leads to a quite small or even great degree of transformation of the effect the music has emotionally. Bach knew what he was aiming for, and if we are really interested in seeking out Bach’s musical intentions rather than great playing as an aim in itself, then we will find the greatest clues by listening to performances on the intended instrument.

The issues of staccato and detaché as well as dynamic are well covered in the post linked to here: Link

It would be interesting to consider how much work Bach expends on re-composing music for new instruments, which should silence arguments about the myth that his pragmatism led to him not worrying what instruments were used for his music, and the prime example here is the recasting of Violin Concertos for keyboards where the scoring of the accompaniment is in some case entirely reworked, rhythms and themes completely changed, and the whole key structure adjusted. I think this indicates that for Bach even the key is vital for the expressive effect, and that he felt different keys suited the expressive capacities of different instruments optimally. He was keen to open up the use of all the keys of keyboard instruments in his pioneering of something akin to the modern keyboard tuning used now, even temperament, while he fully understood and utilised how certain keys suited certain moods on strings and winds.

Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Earwicker
Some of Bach's dance movements are pretty direct, I wouldn't say he was any more mysterious and otherworldly than other premier league composers!
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by droodzilla
Accepted.

I'd like to apply my comments to all great music (and, perhaps, great art in general).

And yes, Bach can be great fun at times.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by GraemeH
quote:
Originally posted by droodzilla:
Accepted.

I'd like to apply my comments to all great music (and, perhaps, great art in general).

And yes, Bach can be great fun at times.


Try 'Blues on Bach' by the Modern Jazz Quartet...bloomin' marvellous if you like that sort of thing.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Tam
Thanks for the recommendation Graeme, I'll have to check that out (since I very much enjoy Loussier's take on Bach - indeed, I'll be hearing him play in two weeks time). Of course, both these takes are now some little way from original instruments.....

regards, Tam
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Thats what i love about Gould,the sense of joy and fun,his Bach flies like the wind and swings like hell,it has a youthfull feel and he never lost that.

I remember wathching him listening to some playbacks of a section of the Goldbergs in which he thought one take had a Dixieland feel he loved it and so do i.
Bloomin marvelous

Cheers BB
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by droodzilla
Graeme - thanks for the tip; I saw that CD in the basement at Virgin for £5 just the other day, and nearly bought it. I'll definitely go back for it now.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by droodzilla
Dan - at least we agree on Gould! I have the "A Sense of Wonder" 3CD set, and it's absolutely fascinating to hear his two, very different takes on the Goldbergs. The interview on CD three is also very interesting, and contains several laugh out loud funny moments.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Hey Drood,
We probably agree on many things,if you indulge in any of his other output,he is incredibly funny,thought provoking and just down right interesting,he is like a good drinking partner,although a teetotaller,i love him.

And contrary to what Fredrik might have you believe,had and has,a string of admirers that reads like a whose who of Premier devision composers,musicians,is it now 22 years after his death,more popular than ever.

Cheers BB
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Earwicker
Gould's performances were overtly eccentric and egocentric; that may or may not bother you; it might even delight you! I tend to agree with Brendel that originality should be the outcome of an effort, not the input.
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
What a lovely thread this is! I don't need to add a word to it, beyond saying thanks for the stimulating thoughts contained, and there was I thinking that maybe it really would be a bit of a tumbleweed case! As ever I learn from the Forum...

Thabks to all from Fredrik
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by fidelio
well, i'm listening to handel (julius caeser) today in rebellion.

in all seriousness, the view (or the one view today) i take is that things such as "bach's blues" or gould, or theories about how j.s. composed based on a secret esoteric mathematical biblical formula, are all a sort of homage to him, and cannot really be objectionable except to the most pedantic and rigid. having said that, i personally take attempts the most the heaart to perform bach as he "intended," whatever that may mean.

in another thread i mentioned the issue of fortepiano vs. modern piano vis a vis mozart or haydn, so i will not flog that horse again as no one mentioned it once. in any case, i am not sure i would enjoy the spice girls singing beethoven's late string quartets, but the development would be of interest.
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by hungryhalibut
quote:
As for Bach, a favourite disc is the cello suites transcribed for double bass, as played by Edgar Meyer. Hopelessly wrong I guess, but I could give a rat's ass.


This a truly great record; I was listening to it only yesterday. I have, being a Bach beginner, never heard the cello suites on cello, but will happily take recommendations.

Nigel
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by Huwge
Nigel,
you have to take this as a personal choice and there will be many luminaries who will weigh in to say that one is better or worse. These are versions I would prefer not to be without:
Pablo Casals - first heard and loved in a school music lesson many years ago. The EMI reference recording is quite good
A newer version is Bruno Cocset on the French Alpha label, I find this excellent.
Rostropovich and Fournier have not been replace on CD, but the vinyl gets fairly frequent spins.

As much as I like Janos Starker, I have never got on that well with his Bach.

Don't think you'd be wasting money on any of the above, although old Pau Casals doesn't have grunt and ground, but the soul ...

Huw
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by Earwicker
Good recommendations Huw! The new one by Steven Isserlis is pretty damn good from what I've heard of it - if you don't mind paying full price. I like Rostropovich.
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by hungryhalibut
Thanks to you both. The Rostropovich will be winging its way to Emsworth shortly.

Nigel
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
My favourite is Fournier, on DG...

ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by Huwge
quote:
although old Pau Casals doesn't have grunt and ground, but the soul ...


Sometimes it helps to check before blithely hitting "Post Now"

should read, doesn't half grunt and groan ...

Enjoy, Nigel.

Huw
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by hungryhalibut
quote:
Sometimes it helps to check before blithely hitting "Post Now"


I thought it was some wierd hifi term. It seems he's rather like the Keith Jarret of the cello...

Nigel
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by hungryhalibut:
The Rostropovich will be winging its way to Emsworth shortly.

You won't be disappointed. It's quite a testament!
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by Norman Clature
Nigel et al,

I possess 3 different performances of the Bach Cello Suites. They are in order of preference with top of the list being my favourite and last being, well,.... last:

  • Jaap Ter Linden (Harmona Mundi)NB:Using a Baroque Cello
  • Maurice Gendron (Phillips)
  • Mstislav Rostropovich (EMI Classics)


Now my preference here tends to favour the argument raised by Fredrik at the beginning of the thread. The nature of the Baroque Cello and the way it has to be bowed (???) and held compared to its modern counterpart makes the resultant sound, tone and delivery of the music totally different to any modern instrument renditions. Ultimately I have found the period instrument representations of the music to be vastly more satisfying to me personally. I do wonder if it is because the original music was written with these instruments in mind. If the modern instruments were around then it makes me think that the music written would have been different i.e. totally different notes etc.

I just find that listening to the period instrument version by Jaap Ter Linden for example is an endless pleasure whereas I have found that I do get a bit of listeners fatigue when dealing with Rostropovich and what he does to the music with the license and diferent sound pallette provided by the modern option.

I shall jump off the cliff and rave now ....:

I have theorised that fatigue may arise because my brain is somehow resisting it a little because it seems essentially out of whack at a very deep level. Whereas the period instrument version is entirely in harmony with itself on every level. Now I "think" that may be in accordance with some of the original notion posted by Fredrik. In which case I agree.

Phew feels better now I have that off my chest. Now that could be a load of old cobblers and all and sundry can critique as they see fit, and I am sure you will do so with passion and in good spirit. Winker

Now I do admire the Rostropovich version very much but I just do not return to it any longer now I own Jaap Ter Lindens.

Cheers

Norman
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by James Fraser
I cannot claim to be an expert on Bach, but I did start whilst in my teens with Trevor Pinnock's foray into back, having his interpretation of the Goldbergs, then Kenneth Gilbert with the Well Tempered Clavier, then Morony's Art of Fuge - all of course on harpsichord. Only very recently did I become further enlightened with Gould on youtube clips, with a purchase of Art of Fuge on both organ and piano. To me, Bach's music is so transcendenory and musical beyond belief, the medium through which it is played is almost irrelevant. I enjoy Gould as much as Pinnock. However, despite the piano being more akin to emotional expression (like the violin) then the harpsichord, I would still favour Bach's works for harpsichord played on the harpsichord, as for me, this is the instrument that Bach would have used to compose and play, and I think, does convey that bit more of what Bach expected his work to sound like. I understand that Bach had very acute sensory to acoustics/reverberation/soundscape in a listening or performing environment, so would hardly have ignored and I believe did not ignore, how he wanted his music to translate from the actual notes into the overall picutre played (ie orchestra version sounding different from harpsichord version, of the exact same piece played).
By the way, I rather like Rostropovich, although admittedly, have not heard other interpretations.
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by Earwicker
James,

I agree, although I think Bach would have loved the modern concert grand!
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by David Dever
Do any of you actually play said instruments, or are you speculating?
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear David,

I played the string bass for proper fees and porterage for about seven years till arthritis ruined my left hand. I taught the instrument in a very nice music school in Worcester, but resigned that post when I felt I could not longer demonstrate what I wanted the students to do for themselves. The Pricipal was the then organist in the Cathedral, and the Head of Strings, the Pincipal Second Violinists in the CBSO. I played in many Bach concerts and many others over the years, which used to delight me but always after the event as I found the sheere concetration involved precluded thoughts of enjoyment as you go along!

My first paid gig was in Handel's Messiah [in Worcester Cathedral] and my last was in Haydn's Creation [in the Adrian Boult Hall in Birmingham] in 2000.

I have always been an avide student of music, having some very good lesson and tuoring in theory, history and so on, and when I had my bass made for me [pictured below] I had it constructed and the thickness in the table - which is the front - and the back to carry plain gut strings so that that the instrument was very suitable for all music from Bach to must up to the 1960s when steel strings generally replaced gut in orchestras. I found that gut string were more than capable of use in the modern orcherstra...

So I suppose I can claim to have been quite good at the instrument I played and taught.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

PS: Here is picture of me with the bass, after I had given up professional playing, and coninued while I could with small concerts with a lovely little string orchestra of between 13 and 17 mainly retired players, and out mainstay was the music of old JSB, while we performed new works and much in between. Even some Britten on occasion!

I know they are a number of fine players who occasionally post here [even if I can no longer call myself a player today]...



Towards then end of my playing I was consulting the maker of the bass about converting it to a full blown Violone, which is the Baroque equivalent of the modern double bass, which would have been especially apt for this particular instrument, which was based on a great instrument by Maggini from the 1660s. I thought that the lower tensions in the slightly thinner strings might have helped my left hand go on a little longer, but eventually playing became impossible before the change was made.
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by Earwicker
I say I'm a violinist when people ask, but it doesn't spend much time under my chin these days with one thing or another. I never tried a baroque bow, but some cheap, decent quality replicas are coming out of China at the moment so I'll give it a try at some point. I've been intending to for ages...!