Virginia Tech Shootings

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

Very few Colonials can spell.

Spell what? (I'm afraid that, while your spelling is superb in that statement, your use of grammar leaves your meaning unclear...)

Mick

You might find this interesting:

101 Ways That England Ruined the World.

Deane

I simply can’t understand acad's posting about banning all guns, even for the military. Any student of history (and acad is a former military officer if I remember correctly!) understands the arms race that has been going on at various paces since the beginning of human warfare. The logical conclusion of this race may be a scorched earth, I don’t know. But it is a natural outcome of wanting to be more powerful than one’s enemy.
All the time while the news plays back the same old footage over and over there have been several hundred people killed in Iraq by bombs.
acad, why don’t we outlaw suicide bombing?
David

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
I simply can’t understand acad's posting about banning all guns, even for the military.

I know. He missed April 1st by almost 20 days!

quote:

it is a natural outcome of wanting to be more powerful than one’s enemy.

Indeed. You can dress it up in any amount of flowery pseudo-moralistic language you like, but very often in world affairs it's a case of your will versus someone else's, and if you want yours to prevail you'll need guns... LOTS of guns.

EW

Murder is something done by a person to another.

Guns just make it easier and more efficient. Ted Bundy dispatched dozens without resorting to guns. It just took him longer.

Banning guns won't stop idiots like Mr. Virginia Tech, just like the death penalty fails to prevent capital crime.

Gun crimes are the symptom of a rotting social structure and the creation of an immoral, Godless vacuum.

Chaps

I think America has a really in built problem with guns in the sense that most gun ownwers are normal law abiding citizens who would not dream of getting a parking ticket, let alone doing something bad with a gun.

These people are going to automatically think that the problem is not with the gun but with the person who uses it.

Therefore the great middle America will be pushing to retain gun ownership but to crack down hard on anyone who mis uses them.

This however will not prevent trageties such as this happening.

Unfortunately you will never convince Americans of this and to be fair, we banned hand gun ownership after Dunnblane which has had no effect on gun crime whatsoever. That exercise was pure political posturing.

The problem is that there are millions of guns just lying around in spare cupboards. I just cannot think of an answer.

Regards

Mick

quote:

The problem is that there are millions of guns just lying around in spare cupboards. I just cannot think of an answer.

Certainly in this case it was not, the guy walked in to a shop handed over a credit card and got a gun and bullets.He and the gun shop owner did what was required by law, including a "back ground" check.
I also think there is no answer, the genie is out of the bottle and some one rammed the cork back in too.

Howard

quote:

Keeping firearms, poisons, automobiles, baseball bats, sharp sticks, rocks, etc. out of the hands of unstable people would seems like a good idea, but who exactly are these people and how likely are they to do such things?

Most dangerous poisons have some control, automobiles require a licence and mass murder with a sharp stick or rock is less easy and a lot easier to defend against. Of course sick people will do bad things but lets try to reduce the amount and ease of access to these weapons.

Howard

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:

acad, why don’t we outlaw suicide bombing?
David

Is it legal, then?

quote:

Originally posted by Chillkram:

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:

acad, why don’t we outlaw suicide bombing?
David

Is it legal, then?

Brilliant Mark

David, I am against suicide bombing. I am against all violence. Whatever I was in the past I am now a pacifist.

I agree with Howard, we must make it as hard as possible for anyone to kill anyone. In the US with its generation of underdeveloped pre-frontal lobed sociopathic computer gamers it is increasingly the case that war is becoming the province of techies sitting in a room miles away from the targets, miles away from any awareness of the suffering they cause, miles away from feeling any human compassion and miles away from taking any responsibility for their actions. If people had to use stones and clubs to kill each other up close and personal they might think twice about it. There will always be psychos like this new chap but that does not mean we should help him by making it so easy to get hold of a gun and we can reduce the amount of psychos there are by getting rid of all violent computer games and violence on tv.

Acad

For once I agree with you but you are never going to get violent computer games out of the system. The kids want them, they are easy to produce and can be easily duplicated.

They are now, unfortunately, a fact of life.

Also there are so many old guns around that they have gone beyond the point of no return.

Whether the Americans really want the right to carry arms or not, this sort of thing is going to happen again and again.

This is one case of the sons paying for the sins of the fathers.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Is it legal, then?

My point exactly.

This maniac could have stolen the firearms used in his deeds as easily as buying them legally. Then the (presumably) legit owners of the stolen firearms would have that on their conscience forever.

What is most telling to me is how the administration of VT is saying that they let no one down by following their procedures and rules. What a bunch of cowards, hiding their inaction prior to the event behind process.

Blame the guns, not the many that were concerned about this guy and did nothing outside of process to help him or get him out of the mainstream.

This event is so polarizing: Ban guns for everyone forever OR arm everyone and lock up all the nuts. Neither will help propel our society forward.

Like it or not, Americans enjoy more freedoms than any other nation on the planet. With this great freedom comes even greater responsibility and vigilance. And I’m afraid that the vast majority of Americans have forgotten how or don’t want to exercise these virtues.

I am deeply saddened.

quote:

In the US with its generation of underdeveloped pre-frontal lobed sociopathic computer gamers

Easy now, are there no such people living a stone's throw from you as well? Surely this problem is not confined to the US.
David

David

Yes we in the UK have a problem but nowhere as bad as you.

In this country most people cannot see any reason to own guns but in your country the feeling is that you have a right to do so. That sort of attitude is firmly imbedded and will take a long time to change.

Also you have the NRA which is a powerful lobby, in the UK we have a collection of small amatuer organisations who had very little clout.

I really do think that you have gone beyond the point of no return in the States and you will have to live with the fact it is a dangerous place to live.

Regards

Mick

Dear Friends,

My late Norwegian Uncle was a senior man in Coca Cola in Northern Europe, and died just months before his retirement, "in Harness." Naturally a large part of his remuneration was is US Dollars, as the tax rate in Norway is prohibitive for very high earners. In retirement his plan was to emigrate from Norway to enjoy his Dollar Pension. But not in USA. My aunt's and his view was that the US culture fell a long way short of European standards, with the Gun and the Vexatious Litigation Culture.

My aunt is indeed a Tax Exile from Norway [only 30 days maximum per annum in her homeland] now, but lives in the Bahamas, lucky lady, and only visits the US for certain services such as getting the motor serviced on her boat. She does not enjoy the place, with its fullsome, but skin shallow, "Have a nice day" approach...

If only the peoples of the US would look at themselves as outsiders do, they might modify their ways a bit, but I fear that the US is the very most insular nation on earth regarding matterrs of civilisation and culture. This is a shame as they have many good points.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

I was waiting for a transfer in Minneapolis St Paul,sitting next to an elderly obviously affluent educated couple. They heard my wife and I talking and lent over and asked:- "as a foreigner why do you think every one hates America?" This was just post 9/11. My answer was that in general they were an arrogant and un-listening race, trying to force their way of life on people that did not want it, and could not understand why.
She seemed shocked at my answer, this from some one I felt should have understood this. So if the educated can't see,what hope for the rest?

Howard

First, I don’t expect my fine friends on this forum to understand American culture any more than I understand yours. Such a large country with our diverse population has a rich and complex fabric of ideas, beliefs and practices. Part of this culture that I admire is the unwillingness to have the government take away the ability to defend ourselves, at least on some level.
Our recent history included "settling" the land (massacre of the indigenous Native American population), several well-known altercations with the British, massive, bloody civil war (that is still going on in several ways), WWs I & II, skirmishes with the Mexico, Korea, Vietnam and, of course Iraq / Afghanistan etc. All these required people on the outposts of the “civilized” parts to be armed and ready to fight. These memories die hard.
It’s been said several times already, but it seems that a lot of well-meaning people, here and all over the world, desperate to make the world a better place, focus on controlling the hardware (guns) without addressing the root problem, which is the software (culture).
It seems these same people are happy to support violent movies, television shows and music along with the downward shift in culture as a “right of free speech” rather than face up to how this is affecting people.
There is so much desensitization to violence, suffering and pain as a result of being bombarded by various abstractions of it constantly.
I grew up in an era where guns were more available than they are today – no background checks, etc. And dynamite was available to farmers (or anyone else for that matter) to remove tree stumps or whatever. Also farm chemicals such as the type used in the Oklahoma City bombing. Handguns like the 9mm used by this recent murderer were not as affordable as they are today thanks to manufacturing in 3rd world countries, but there were plenty of high caliber revolvers and shotguns around.
I’m a gun owner but I don’t subscribe to most of the NRA’s positions and I favor tighter controls on sales and ownership. And harsher penalties for crimes committed with guns. I have proper permits and training from the police in how to handle them. I’ve never shot anyone nor do I plan to do so unless the direst circumstances dictate. My family or the “bad guy”? I’ll put my family first.
Perhaps that sounds crazy but it is the prevailing feeling of lawful, good citizens who wish to have a chance against criminals and gangsters.
My boys have been trained in the proper handling, loading and shooting of various firearms. My guns are locked in a secure safe, but I can’t count on other people to do the same. I want my boys to be aware of both the dangers and how they work in the case that they come across one outside the home. One of the causes of accidents is people carelessly leaving them out or accessible and children handling them to terrible ends.
My wife is a fair shot as well, being raised by a family that enjoyed hunting. She has a more than healthy respect for firearms and has helped instill this in our boys.
Our approach on conflicts is to first understand then to avoid the conflict. Only engage if you cannot run away from the danger.
Would I give up handguns or all firearms in the case of demands by the government? I don’t know. Nor do I know what my alternatives would be. It is the feeling of the majority that if our government went to that extreme then we would be lost as a nation. No longer would the people have the power to stand up to ever increasing tyranny, ultimately rising up and taking back what was won by our forefathers. Yes, what was won from the Brits.
It has been recited many times that Hitler was a proponent of gun control. An unarmed mass is much easier to control. On the other hand, a fully-armed mass would result in anarchy.
Maybe this aspect is a slice of American culture that is beyond the understanding of those not immersed in it.
I completely agree that many aspects of our culture are sick and none of us have proposed any real answers to solve these problems. I don’t know where or how it will end but it seems that the course we’re on is not to a good place.
Fredrik, as I type I see your post about your uncle and aunt. A shame she is living away from her home (but the Bahamas’ weather is a bit better I expect). If the US is so repulsive to her then why is she not back home and paying high taxes?
The US is declining in influence and popularity, no doubt. But I believe Westerners have more in common than not. It takes all kinds to make the world go ‘round, does it not? We can’t all be like the UK any more than we can all be like Sudan.
Some serious introspection is way, way overdue in the US. I just don’t see it coming any time soon.
David

Howard, our era of Imperialism is just underway. I doubt ours will be as successful as yours was.
David

quote:

our era of Imperialism is just underway. I doubt ours will be as successful as yours was.

May prove to be just as traumatic for the imperialised though!

However the US "Empire" will be the shortest lived in the history of mankind. The real cultural leaders will be the Chinese and Indians. Imperialist Power tends to rest with mighty economies...

I think the US peoples will deal with a post Imperialist position less well than the phlegmatic British. Giving up being top Nation may result in some very strange actions I reckon.

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Giving up being top Nation may result in some very strange actions I reckon.

God help us all.

Exactly my point. Fredrik

Even Miss America can shoot
Add tires to the things you can shoot with a handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:


I think the US peoples will deal with a post Imperialist position less well than the phlegmatic British. Giving up being top Nation may result in some very strange actions I reckon.

ATB from Fredrik

We have James Bond to delude ourselves we still have great power if Hollywood can come up with someone similar they might survive the trauma of relegation.

We can always hope the current governor of Cali-Forniea (as he pronounces it) will go back to acting. Oh wait, he's Austrian born.

Interesting to note: All this blame I'm putting on American culture and the murderer was a green-card holding Korean. I guess he was fully assimilated then.

David