35mm Film or Digital

My take as a complete novice

Old SLRs are the NAP140 of the photo world, i.e. through the roof performance/price ratio. Six months ago I picked up a Pentax 35mm SLR (manual + aperture priority), and 2 SMC manual primes (50mm/1.7 and 28mm/2.8) for less than $120 off ebay. Takes great pictures, is small, and runs without batteries if need be. I've learned soooo much more about taking pictures with that camera than with my canon digital snappy -- I actually think about depth of field, available lighting (since I dont use a flash), which filter, etc.
It feels better in the hand too. Sure, for 30X more, I could have the same with digital, but why?

Dan

p.s. novice question -- isn't all this MP stuff misleading anyway? Unless it's one of those new Foveon (sp?) CCD's, cant each pixel only respond to one color?

Count,

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I have tried it myself. I've tried everything myself. It's my job. All I do all day is photograph, retouch, print, photograph, send, email, invoice, accounts, chase payments, buy equipment, photograph.

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Have you tried any of the silver halide-based, digital printers like the Fuji Pictrography? Just curious what professionals think of the best (or worst) of both worlds kind of printers.

Joe

my take on the debate is that it seems to be the wrong time to spend big money on either technology

I find that my feelings are heading on oposite directions for film/digital.

For film, I'm getting more and more manual - I leave the OM4ti at home and take the OM1, I find that I think about the exposure and focus more and then act more intuitively with a purely manual camera. Also I love to take out just one or 2 primes rather than any of the big hefty zooms and know that the aperture will be wide enough and the quality good enough.

It seems that prices are heading downhill quickly so you could pick up an OM1, a 28 or 35, a 50 and a 100 ish for prob about £200 to £300.

I've taken to processing my own B&W films (which incedently are only £1.00 to £1.50 on the web), scanning at low res to produce a contact sheet and then just scanning properly the better ones.

However I've just got my 4yr old a cheapo £70 digital, fixed lens, fixed focus 2MP job. With a £20 memory card it'll take 100 shots at its best settings. I've been pleasently suprised how OK the pics are - not great of course but not awful, and of course being 'free' photos that you can review and discard straight away I shot loads of pics over the Christmas period and then just kept the ocasional good one - to be honest I've probably grabbed more 'memorable' shots recently this way than with the film camera.

I'd go for a cheap 2nd hand SLR with a few decent 2nd hand primes and maybe also a £200 - £300 compact bearing in mind that it'll be superseded in 6months.
Phil

I went down this road last year. Been using SLRs since the mid 70s as an occasional source of income but mostly as a hobby. Last year I went self employed and most of my clients needed photo work done for websites, intranets and extranets, so digital looked like a good business decision.

To cut a long stroy short I did a lot of research and for all my efforts ended up with a load of shite, in the form of a Minolta Dimage 7Hi. Just about the worst of all worlds and not capable of taking anything decently.

After a lot more research I got the excellent Canon EOS10D with the 17-40USM zoom. A big outlay compared to a 35mm SLR but worth every penny for my needs. The thing to remember is that with digital, you have to learn it all over again. No, not the basics, but all that stuff you instinctively knew about how to get the best balance in any situation. And of course, the characteristics of the lens need learning too.

I'm two months and about 2000 frames into the brave new world and I'm still having to make notes. But at least the results are instant, bracketing is largly a thing of the past, and most important for me, the client gets to chose what they want on the spot.

Battery life isn't a problem with the 10D. Last week I even went out on a job and left the 35mm SLR behind (yes, I've still got one). That was a first. I suppose on balance, that if I couldn't justify the uotlay for business reasons, I wouldn't have gone digital. But that's just me being mean - I can think of more expensive passtimes.

Cheers

Harry

Just been doing some searching on this forum for info on digital camera's and came across this old thread. Jessops currently have the Canon EOS300D for sale at £689, including EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 DC Lens and a £100 cashback if purchased before 31st Jan. So it's come down a lot in the last year. At £589 I'm seriously tempted.

Hi Brian

My mate bought the EOS300D with 18-55mm lens for £540 after the £100 cashback before Christmas and got a free 256Mb CF card from Canon too.
Sorry, can't remember where he got it but it was off the net (UK source).

Its a fabulous camera for the money!

Julian

Julian

Thanks for the info. I'll do more searching to see if I can find it, Every little bit saved.......

EOS300D from Amazon.co.uk

It's getting cheaper and cheaper and I'm becoming more and more tempted. £499 now after the Canon £100 cashback offer.

I just went for that deal myself. If I hadn't hesitated, it would have been cheaper. Before Xmas it was only £475 with a free memory card. Still the £499 deal from Amazon was the cheapest deal I could find.

BTW, the free Tamrac bag is useless, it isn't big enough for an SLR.

I don't think there's a reason nowadays to justify buying a 35mm SLR camera exclusively for colour photography. In the same situation, with understanding of the camera's controls and good glass, a photographer with a DSLR will take more satisfying, usable pictures than a film photographer, and probably a lot more of them, too.

Digital's other, big advantage is as a learning tool for photography in general (you can take as many shots as you want, crop and edit to your heart's desire; learn about correct exposure; improve your composition or lighting technique with instant review, etc).

About the lens: I use a D100 and am still amazed how much better shots with a prime Nikkor 24mm look than those taken with the 18-35mm zoom I bought with it (the 18-70 supplied with the D70 is even worse) The new 17-55 is better, and designed for the Nikon DSLRs, but still somewhat distorted at the wide end. The lens is as important as which body you use, if not more so.

If you do intend to use black and white film and process and print yourself (that's a big if) then my feeling is film has the edge. If you're an experienced printer you will miss the magic and control of the image in the darkroom. I know I do. I haven't made a black and white digital print I've been happy with, yet.

That said, the best, bar none, black and white large-scale prints I have ever seen were taken on a view camera, scanned by drum scanner (not your common or garden home flat-bed) and printed on a top-of-the-range Epson. They were comparable with the best palladium prints I've seen, but sharper.

Peter

£499 sound like a great deal to me.

After your credit card has recovered, consider going to 7dayshop.com to get a couple of 512Mb CF cards and a spare battery.

Get the compatible battery, it's a bargain and it's better than the genuine Canon one.

Unless you really need fast memory cards, these are a bargain. A 512Mb card is best because they are the largest size (when full) that will write to CD without any editing.

Good luck, Julian

Ok, I've ordered the camera and just been to the site linked by Julian and ordered another battery. I'm wondering about the memory card. Does the camera have some kind of small built in memory that allows you to take 'some' photo's without a memory card? If not, I'd have thought a card of some description/capacity should be included with the camera to get you up and running???

No, you need a CF card. Amazon have the 512MB cf card for £28, so if they haven't dispatched the camera already, add it to the order.

Some deals have a card thrown in. I take your point Brian and agree, but I spose it's the equivilant of expecting film to be thrown in with a non digital SLR.

Cheers

Harry

I'd already ordered the £28 card from Amazon, it's just that the camera will arrive this week, but the card isn't expected to arrive until 22nd Jan. Looks like I'll have to show some patience or cancel the order of the card from Amazon and order the card from 7dayshop instead.

Brian,

Please check your PT.

You cannot have too many cards so buying an additional one is not a problem. Could save you taking a laptop on a two day trip

Ordering from 7 day shop will not automatically give you instant fulfillment

Derek

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Derek

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Ordering from 7 day shop will not automatically give you instant fulfillment

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Hmm. What do you know about 7dayshop? Anything I should be worrying about? I've only ordered a battery from them.

I have had good service from 7dayshop - and will continue to order from them - however sometimes they get overwhelmed with orders and sometimes they are out of stock and it takes time to get the stock in, worst case was a 256mb CF card which was a bargain at the time took several weeks to come thru

I have not had an order unfulfilled and if the order seemed to be late then I could get an update from them by phone or email

Derek

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The only problems I have ever had related to 7dayshop are when they split bulk packs of film and you have no idea of the expiry date.

In all other dealings they given good service. I agree there deliveries are not as quick as they could be, but I have learnt to work around that.

Julian

Anyone come across a digital camera that keeps working at -30 celsius and has a manual shutter action just in case?

Ahwell, will have to stick to 35mm for those high altitude trips

Just had 100ASA Fuji Reala (on a Tamron/Nikon FG combo) blow up to 24x18inch and the grain is just visable on close inspection, but at least my camera was still working at 6000m.

Matthew

mmmmm you've got me interested

I got a Minolta 5MP compact and am amazed by the pictures which are far better than my old Dynax SLR with Kodak mail order processing (Glasgow)

Why choose the Canon over the Nikon and is it prudent to wait for higher MP cameras.

Can you use standard SLR lenses or are the focal lengths different?

Bosh

To answer a few of your questions....,

Q Why choose the Canon (EOS300D) over the Nikon (D70)
A The Canon is 2/3rds the price (£500 vs £750)
(Prices stated include the kit zoom, 18-55mm on the Canon and 18-70mm on the Nikon)

The Nikon is a better camera, closer to the spec. of the Canon EOS10D.
Whether the difference is worth it to you needs a bit of investigation on your part.

Q Is it prudent to wait for higher MP cameras.
A You could go for an EOS20D (8MP) but if you only do smaller prints 6MP (the 10D, 300D and D70) is fine. Download some sample prints from dpreviews' review section and print them. See what you think.

Q Can you use standard SLR lenses
A You could use your Dynax lenses on the new Minolta DSLR (I think!) but you would have to cope with what is commonly called the "crop factor". Because the sensor is smaller, lenses "appear" longer in focal length than they are with 35mm film. The Minolta and Nikon crop factor is 1.5x (ie your standard 50mm lens becomes 75mm). The Canon crop factor is 1.6x. Wide angle workers tend to moan about DSLR's because their lenses are no longer as wide. However if you like longer lenses, you can get big bonuses (a 300 f2.8 changes to a 450mm still at f2.8!)

Julian

ps - just in case you were wondering, a 6MP DSLR will completely trash a 5MP compact. It would probably see off a 7/8MP compact fairly comfortably too.

[This message was edited by Julian H on Mon 10 January 2005 at 20:53.]

It is also worth considering how many pixels are going to be cropped off the image when you are trying to get the image to fit on a standard sized sheets of paper - often the actual 6mp camera becomes effectively a 5mp camera.

You should also be aware that the size of the individual sensors has an effect that is perhaps more significant than the absolute number of pixels, bigger sensor sites mean better ability to handle low light and a reduced tendency to generate noise from the heat generated by the sensor being switched on and give a better colour.

Finally the issue of absolute pixel quantity - how big do you plan to print the images at, and how much do you expect to crop down the image.

Unless you are into commercial large print work I think that the DSLRs out at the moment will have more than enough pixels for you.

And do not forget that if you get a Canon or Nikon DSLR you will suffer from dirt/dust on the sensor that gets in when you change the lenses which will require post processing to fix it as ell as cleaning the sensor.

Derek

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Matthew T - re cold conditions and digital camers

Discussion of cold usage of a DSLR in this thread

Derek

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