My 72 is a pretty black box-- what can it do in an analogue sense?

Take a look at the 2 cards directly behind your BNC connectors. If they say NA322 you've got MM cards. If they say NA323, they're MC Hammers.

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on MONDAY 26 August 2002 at 17:34.]

Warning: plugging an MM cartridge (with its high output) into MC cards might damage them.

The best cartridges are MC but this doesn't mean you should necessarily get one. A top quality turntable/arm with a good MM will outperform an inferior turntable/arm with a much better MC.

E.g. I prefered Linn LP12/Ekos/K18 to LP12/Ittok/Troika, even though the Troika (MC)
was incomparably better than the K18 (MM) when compared in the same turntable/arm.

JD

What cartridge do you have ?

If MC, the don't touch this with the MM boards!

You will need to terminate the arm leads with bnc plugs, or use an phono-bnc adapter in the short term.

DS

OTD - Appegiators - Elements

so the 72 DOES have phono boards-- be they MM or MC (Hammer). I just need to plug and play, then? so all that Stageline stuff etc. is all Mo' better, but not necessary??

D

James

The difference between an ittok and ekos is massive. I did this upgrade and can only wonder how you can reach your opinion. I did the k18/ekos Vs ittok/troika test and it was obvious from the first note in that the ekos was eating the ittok for breakfast. IMO the arrow is better still but that's another story.

Marginal is certainly not a word that spings to mind in this context. Have you listened to the difference in a controlled way? ie same system, same cartridge (same condition) etc etc. Did you hear an ekos I or II? Were both arms in perfect working order?

IMO and experience anybody using an lp12 to front a system above 62/hicap/140 type level without an arrow or ekos is creating a musical bottleneck.

Maybe we listen for different things in the reproduction of music, that would go some way to explaining your dislike of the nap500 which makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up on a daily basis.

The only thing wired up wrongly round here must be your ears if you think an ittok gives an ekos a close run.

An Ekos/K18 cost the same or less than an Ittok/Troika yet sounded better.

So you'd have to be a bit of a bozo to buy the Ittok/Troika, given that in a couple of years you'd have worn out your Troika and have to replace it. It doesn't even take GCSE maths to see the conclusion.

Paul

Certainly any sample can have outliers, and I admire a person who sticks to a well-thought out opinion even when in a small minority. But I have 2 comments for James.

1) a one time comparison is not likely to be conclusive, and

2) You state your opinion as fact often and it's very tedious to reply. As a result, your opinion - very much in the minority - stands unchallenged simply because you're willing to keep stating it. I think you owe your readers a disclaimer.

Regards.

Phil

does not exist yet. well-- it isnt mine yet, anyway. i am thinking about a Planar 3 or maybe an Audio Note TTI or Creek mmf-7 (or what ever you call it).

As for the cartridge--

perhaps a dynavector or a cheaper Ortofon or Grado? Or even a REGA cartridge. i am big into classicl and opera. Any other suggestions? I have been too busy listening to the system to shut it down and check the type of phono board yet so MC Hammer and MM recommendations welcome until i diagnose the phono board type. i know it has them.

So i also need one of those BNC phono plugs as well, eh? Kind of the phono equivalent of a DIN connector??

David

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This bozo bought his Ittok before the Ekos was invented.

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The argument still applies. Arms don't really wear out, Troikas do. Ekos/good-cheapy outperforms Ittok/anything and costs way less to run. Pretty soon you have Ekos/something-excellent and you're no worse off.

Change Ekos to ARO according to taste and assumption.

FWIW this bozo changed his Ittok for an Ekos before ARO was released. The cost to change was about the same as a Troika.

Paul

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Have you heard an LP12 / Ittok on phase 4 Mana?

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James my boy - when you get to hear my LP12 / Aro on Phase 4 Mana, you will know you are talking a load of *******.

quote:

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This bozo always thought the ARO came out a good few years before the Ekos.

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I think it was talked about for a while before being generally available.

Certainly when I bought an LP12/Ekos in 1988, the ARO wasn't on demo or readily available.

By 1989 the Ittok was an LVIII. FWIW.

The Ekos/K18 against Ittok/Troika demo is well known, performed many times, and the Ekos wins. The difference is not slight. Improved supports should lead to an increased difference rather than reduced.

I've only heard Mana'd LP12s with AROs and on rather more than 4 levels.

Paul

quote:

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Next time I'm darn sarf, I'll drop you a line?

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Of course !

quote:

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there's little point in repeating that infamous dem result (The Ekos/K18 against Ittok/Troika demo is well known, performed many times, and the Ekos wins. The difference is not slight), I've heard a new Ekos replete with Arkiv Boron, and compared with what I've got at home, it was nowt to get excited about, honestly.

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It needs to be repeated as long as you are proselytising off-piste nonsense.

Unfortunately unless you do the dem in a constant system you are in no position to know what you are talking about.

Put it another way, I've heard a more Mana'd than yours system, and compared to what I have at home it was nothing to get excited about. Does that mean Mana is worthless?

Paul

An internecine Mana war

JeremyD: I prefered Linn LP12/Ekos/K18 to LP12/Ittok/Troika

james mcp: That's odd considering the Ekos is only marginally, teenie-weenily, microscopically, hardly-at-all, maybe-on-a-good-day-with-a-following-wind, better than the Ittok.

You've been reading the hi-fi weenie mags, haven't you, Jeremy?

If james mcp had merely expressed his opinion then nobody would have objected. However, the fact that he chose to express his views in a confrontational manner - libelling me in the process - suggests that he sought to deceive others into accepting his opinion as the norm. That is why others responded to him as they did.

james mcp: I've heard a new Ekos replete with Arkiv Boron, and compared with what I've got at home, it was nowt to get excited about, honestly.

Since he made a seemingly authorititative statement based on what now appears (judging by his own words above) not even to have been a direct comparison, it will be unsurprising if james mcp's opinions come to be regarded with suspicion in future.

james mcp: I know for a fact that there are plenty of others who agree with me.

How many? Who are they? If there really are other forum members who have a similar opinion (and I seem to think there is one) it would be interesting to learn more about their experience of comparing the two - but only, of course, if their opinions are derived from a real comparison rather than the imagined one that james mcp's appears to have been.

JD

PS: when I compared Ekos/K18 with Ittok/Troika it was a Mk1 Ekos, about a year after the Ekos was launched. I had already heard Ekos v ARO v Ittok - all with Troikas. I upgraded from Ittok to EkosII after owning an Ittok for about 11 years. I cannot imagine anyone who was not seriously hard of hearing being unable to hear much difference, although as with all hi-fi I don't find it difficult to accept that a few people may not attribute great significance to that difference...

[This message was edited by JeremyD on SATURDAY 31 August 2002 at 21:43.]

FWIW the elusive 'Black Ittok' was more Ekos prototype than Ittok.

In terms of people feeling 'defensive' about their arms, that's you that is, especially given your current long mullet.

Paul

you cant ask anything on this forum without it turning into some Ossama Bin laden lead Mana war with people throwing Ittoks and Eikoses all around the damned place. Maybe i'll just stick with the 'ol CDX and pick up a hi-cap for my 72 to replace the Flat. God bless the whole beautiful lot of you. Carry on with your slings and Arros. Peace-- my brothers. Cant we all just get along??



yours in the dharma,

the novice starter of this now epicurean thread....

david

Don't take it personally, David. The Naim forum is an bizzare alternate reality where New Yorkers are polite and the English are fantasically rude.

Tell me what you don't like, Vuk. I promise I'll stop.

quote:

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Unfortunately unless you do the dem in a constant system you are in no position to know what you are talking about.

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Paul is correct.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

james: Jeremy, you're confusing 'libelling' with 'taking the piss'.

onlythat is a newcomer. He wrote a serious query, and some of us gave serious answers. james mcp's answer was both misleading and offensive.

james mcp:

quote:

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That is why others responded to him as they did.

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Nah, it's 'cos they've shelled out the readies for an Ekos and are now feeling a little bit insecure and defensive.

We could only feel insecure and defensive if we really agreed with james mcp's view but were lying. Is james mcp accusing every satisfied Ekos owner on the forum of being a liar?

james mcp: Is your deck on Mana, and if not, why not?

No. Pass.

JD

james mcp: Calm down... ...Don't be so wet, I've not 'accused' anyone of anything.

It's a shame james mcp persists in being patronising and deceitful. His first contribution to this thread was to imply that my opinion on Ekos/K18 v Ittok/Troika was obtained from a hi-fi magazine rather than from a proper demonstration. It later transpired that he has not actually had a proper demonstration of Ittok v Ekos, which he might have thought to mention before expressing his opinions as if they were incontrovertible truths.

james mcp: I just don't think it's a massive difference, and as Vuk points out, it's far less than a level of Mana, for example.

I'm entitled to express my opinion, just as you are.

As james mcp well knows, it is he who took offence at my daring to express my opinion. My objection to his posts is not for expressing his opinion on Ekos v Ittok but for his cowardly insinuations against those of us who disagree with him and for his misrepresentation of his opinion as being the norm.

JD