For everyone who does not listen in the dark

Could you please explain (or point to somewhere that can) why energy saving bulbs put more noise into the mains than standard bulbs?

Thank you, Allthings, for this illuminating suggestion.
Don, overcast downtown York

from wikipedia

Fluorescent lamps are a non-linear load and generate harmonic currents in the electrical power supply. The arc within the lamp may generate radio frequency noise, which can be conducted through power wiring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp

I remember that Russ Andrews did an interesting rant in one of his catalogues about the iniquities of energy saving light bulbs, and ecologically they are a bit of a con. The power factor also can be skewed.

I think the gist was that some of his products can help overcome these problems from your hifi's perspective.

Don, rainy downtown york

Well, i've lived in my new house for 2 years and since living here i've had no normal bulbs blow but i've got through 4 energy saving bulbs that were new i might add!

There's so many other things putting crap onto the mains that energy saving lightbulbs are probably the least of your worries. If a system either delights or depresses depending on what light bulbs you are using then there is probably something wrong elsewhere.

James

My simple explanation of this ............. not that it is simple

First - full size fluorescent lamps have ballasts (devices needed to “strike” the lamp into life and energise the fluorescent gas) This so called ballast is a simple inductor, and as such have a problem in that their power factor is less than unity.
A power factor of unity means current & volts (AC syn waves) are synchronised, this is achieved with pure resistance loads such as incandescent lamps.
An inductive load causes amps & volts become unsynchronised, the amp syn wave “lags” volts and the result is the real power available is reduced, but the apparent power i.e. watts (read = your electric meter dial) does not see this power reduction, so you pay more for less.
A capacitive load has the reverse effect, and current “leads” volts
So this means if we design the lamp with a capacitor & inductor, it is possible to balance – or at least improve - power factor issues. And all modern inductive ballasts include power factor correction capacitors. The efect of this depends alot on the design and manufacturing costs that the manufacturer is willing to apply.

Second - modern “low energy” lamps do not have inductive/capacitive ballasts and use an electronic ballast. They also have a less than ideal power factor, but again I am lead to believe it varies from lamp to lamp. They also have a noise problem due which I believe is caused by the rectifier switching mode in the lamp circuit, and I am aware some lamps have a “quieter” noise than others; and I guess again that manufacturing costs are a related issue.

Now, dare I start something??
The effect on our hifi systems could depend on the lamp and its manufacturer.
Who is willing to carry out a comparative audio test of all the low energy lamps ???
If we are to achieve this, we must also disconnect all our wall warts as they all contain inductors and capacitors and shock horror VDR’s. And don’t forget the same applies to fridges, and the dishwasher, and .... and .... and then we must insist the entire local population with a supply on "our sub-station" remove all fluorescent & low energy lamps.
That I am sure will finally convince the world we are all totally mad and from planet Zog.


The real world is that low energy lamps are giving us more light (lumen) for less power (watt)
This means more dosh to spend on beer, wine, music, cars & bling etc..
Incandescent lamps of all sorts, including I am sure (eventually) halogen, will be a thing of the past.
We just need to get used to it.

quote:

The real world is that low energy lamps are giving us more light (lumen) for less power (watt)

You are surely kidding, I've gone over to low energy bulbs and the ones rated as equivalent to a standard 100 watt bulb are seriously lacking in lumen. The 60 watt equivalent are IMO bloody dangerous.

They are as dark as arseholes lets not kid ourselves. Totally and utterly useless in proper dark areas such as loft etc where you have to wait half an hour for them to warm up.

That plus no dimming and the fact they are full of mercury makes one wonder.

If you want I can quote lamp by lamp, manufacturer by manufacturer, the lumens & watts, & the respective ratio of LE -vs- Incandescent, both when new and at 2000 hours. But I have no wish to do so other than give you some more details on the real world of lighting.

What you are saying about light levels is not correct, might I suggest (with the greatest respect) it is either misguided or misapplied. The problem you are facing as general public is you are reading the "data" on the box.
e.g. 11w is eq to 60w – that is not a good indication of light levels nor is it accuarate.

Watts is HEAT, pure an’ simple, and nothing to do with light, lumens, or the price of bread.
1000w black heat heater element gives no light of much use to human vision,
1000w halogen flood gives xxx lumen at YYY metres
But both will give the same 1000w of heat energy.

As an example and as you have used 60w in your posts:
A Philips “Genie” wattage guide on the box shows 11w LE = 60w eq and it will give you 600 lm
A typical 60w incandescent will give you aprx 850 lm (depending on design voltage of lamp –vs- line voltage) so you have already been misguided by the LE wattage guide on the Philips box by a significant percentage.

Another example: I have replaced my incandescent kitchen ceiling lamps with LE.
I changed 320w to 245w (using "wattage" measurements)
Lumen levels at worktop surface have gone from an average of 210 lm to 480 lm.

And Garyi, they are dimmable using electronic ballasts, I accept this is not possible with the table lamp types. But not impossible.

Mercury is a concern of course, but mercury has been in fluorescent tubes since the day they were invented. The lamp type was known about and "invented" in the mid 1800's. They became commercially available in 1920's.
So my friends, low energy lamps are not exact new. And everyone marveled at the lumen levels of flouresent lights, whats the difference ?? They were correctly applied for lumens and even over applied because they gave so much more light per watt.

- "simpulz" as the meercat sez

dedicated mains fixes any of these issues.....

rega1

More paranoia!

You can listen to and enjoy music prefectly well with energy efficient lighting.

I have been doing it since these bayonet fixing flourescent tubes first appeared more than a decade ago.

I find it almost quaint that people would still be using incandescent style lighting.

If you cannot cope then simply light a candle!

That is quite nice as well.

ATB from George

Russ Andrews take on CFL's :-

http://russandrews.blogspot.co...ow-energy-bulbs.html

I think the light from CFLs is crap, they do not light as well as filament bulbs.I also doubt they save any thing (money/environment) either.

Russ Andrews is the master of snake oil – (IMO) – but I do realise he has lots of fans and does speak some sense – but only if he can make a buck out of it.
I don't know where he got the lamps from used in his test. Yes many do have the problem he is accurately showing, but conversely many modern lamps have a power factor closer to unity than he is showing.

I have data for most of the low energy lamps in my house
32w (ID979 J PLT032) (2400 lm) have a PF of 99.8, and give out 75 lumens per watt
Other lamps (aprx 450 to 700 lm) have a PF of aprx 81.5 to 88 giving aprx 56 plus lumens per watt

Compared that to a 60w incandescent (850 lm) which gives 14.14 lumens per watt
I will leave the power factor math to you, but even to a totally non-tech layman the picture has to be more than obvious.

Light from CLF (low energy lights) is not crap.
Sorry but --- basic (schoolboy) physics and ISO both show and understand a lumen from an incandescent is the EXACTLY the same as a lumen from a CLF.
Read (and understand) my other post = forget watt equivalents and fit CLF lamps with the same or similar LUMENS.

That’s it, I am outta here.
If you don’t understand, or prefer to bemoan the passing of stream age lighting, OK it’s your life.
Meanwhile I listen to my music in my way with my dimmable low energy lighting and I do not hear or see adverse effects on my audio reception or electricity bills.

Mike, would it be possible for you to recommend what you think, given the information in your above posts, are good 'energy saving' lightbulbs? I am most interested by energy savers that can be used with dimmer switches.

cheers

Springsteen has been dancing in the dark for years so listening in the dark should not pose too much of a problem.

So is ALL this info on the box? I buy a 60 equivalent CFL and is darker, therefore poorer light, than that of the filament it replaced.

Along with Absolute what are your recommendations?

quote:

basic (schoolboy) physics and ISO both show and understand a lumen from an incandescent is the EXACTLY the same as a lumen from a CLF

And what about the spectral content of the light source? This has a huge impact on the human perception of brightness and quality.
Sorry, but that is basic schoolboy physics too.
I don't count on ISO to standardize and specify my personal tastes in lighting. Seems they've picked the lowest common factor to specify and nothing else.
David

Gents, Desperadoes’, I did not really want to get into this. I cannot recommend stuff, it’s a hell of a lot more complicated than I am prepared to get into. Many considerations are needed for this work, the various room colours, decor absorbency and so many other factors are required to model a room lighting plan. But if I may offer, just this once, some guidelines.

99% of the populations knowledge of CFL lighting is limited to light bulb & CFL types found in B&Q (et al). The general public unfortunately are “conditioned” into comparative light levels rated as watts, light is measured in lumen as I said in previous posts.

So how can you help yourself, frankly it seems you are more or less buggered as all incandescent light bulbs and not many CFL lamps publish lumen on the boxes.
I have some spare CFL lamps in the house made by Philips; the boxes do show the lumen rating.
I just phoned my son who has some other makes, and none have lumens shown on the box.
So I have great sympathy for the public, your guidelines are limited to boxes showing comparisons in watts and many are wrong anyhow, and no lumen info is easily available on anything.

Below is a simple table you can use as a guideline for different bulb types – its available on various public www.
It is VERY dependent on designed lamp voltage and the supply volts applied for incandescent lamps.
And also dependant on the designed colour of CFL lamps – most have a designed colour tint to suit homes, offices, etc..
The table shows lumens per watt (lw) and can be used to assume lumen levels as a rule of thumb gauge.
Lower wattage tungsten incandescent tend to give less lumen per watt as the filament is in the yellow spectrum, whereas higher wattage lamps tend to be in the whiter end of the colour spec.
Halogen lamps as very white so give more lumen per watt
With CFL the lower end of the wattage ranges also tend to give lower lumen per watt – e.g. the range is shown as 45-60

Lamp Type l/w
40W = 12.6
60W = 14.5
100W = 17.5
Halogen = 18-25
Fluorescent = 56-57
CFL = 45-60

So how do you use the table data to estimate comparative lumen levels between lamp types.

e.g. you have a 60W table lamp and want to change to CFL
(60W) 60 x 14.5 = 870 lm
(870 lm) (use lowest rating 45) 870 / 45 = 19.33 watt
(870 lm) (use highest rating 60) 870 / 60 = 14.5 watt

Therefore my advice would be to choose a lamp that is rated between 14.5 and 19.33 watts; I believe that would be the commonly available 18 watt CFL. The lower power CFL is 13W and would be too dim, the higher CFL would be 21W and would be too bright.
But as we all know CFL tend to dim over time (but it is so so much improved with modern designs) my guess is at first the new 18W CFL will appear brighter, but over time will dim down to more or less the same lm as the old 60W tungsten.

Absolute – CFL lamps that can be dimmed are lamps with separate lamp tube and external ELECTRONIC starter ballast pack.
They ARE NOT integral starter ballast of the types we use to replace old light bulbs as simple plug in replacements.
You will not be able to buy them from the B&Q type general DIY stores, but will do so from a specialist lighting cmpy. They will be the type that is ceiling or similar and probably be ceiling surface or flush mounted.

My kitchen for example has Hacel (make) Solara Micro (model) recessed luminaries
They use a ID979 J PLT032 compact fluorescent lamp (triple tube 32W) (8000 hrs and £3 to replace)
It is supplied with an electronic ballast which dangling off the lamp assy on a short wire.

These lamps can be used with any wattage range suitable dimmer, but I would advise the quieter RF noise designs known as “intelligent” dimmers such as MK “Inteligent” Logic Plus (yes HiFi nerds & anoraks I too have an RF shielded heart)
I am using MK Grid Plus Reactive Switches – these a press on/off for instant full on/off & press & hold for slow dim up or slow dim down – again not a B&Q item.

I think I have covered as much as I can without getting into deep dive – I hope it helps.

Happy luminaries to all Naimites

Wow, thanks Mike.

That certainly is very informative Mike, thank you. There is more than enough there to go out and do my own hunting for some good CFLs, and if there are versions available to work in conjunction with a dimmer switch, I think its worth the effort to seek them out.

The main thing to consider when buying an energy saving bulb is the fact they don’t distribute light uniformly.

No point in knowing how many luxens this light puts out. If you where sat underneath it, they will be going right over your head. They emit a lot more light from the sides than the bottom.

Well its starting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8229476.stm

Best start stocking up. How long before we start seeing NOS lightbulbs going on that auction site for silly money?

Oh dear, seems like people need to "go get a life".

I am sure The Times got letters to the editor in 1900's when gas lamps were being replaced by that new fangled electricity stuff, and I am sure it gave rise to all old lady's getting headaches and it would surely drive dogs & small children mad.
Likewise, we have much to lament; a horse will plough all day for a bale of hay, but them damn tractors need gallons of petrol, steam engines replaced with dirty diesels, Spitfires by ugly noisy jets , and I am very surprised at the level of suicides when Britannia was taken out of service.

If Mr Ford had not had vision, all cars would still be black Model-T.
And shock horror - Alfa Romeo would not have designed a car - now that is another blinkered vision post to get into.