Stupid White Men

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Originally posted by Thomas K:
A five-minute interview with a gun-wielding idiot simply reveals that these people really do exist and that it's not just a stereotype (no view or argument here). I don't need to be shown that there are nice, intelligent Americans, too -- I already know that.

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Strongly disagree. Especially in Europe (but I could imagine in Canada, too) there is this huge need to believe the entire population in the USA consists of only stupid gunwaving idiots, and Moore is getting rich and fat feeding that need.

Herman

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That doesn't excuse editing Charlton Heston clips together from different times and places to cause a false impression.

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Ah yes, I feared you would pounce on that. I also thought the entire Heston bit was somewhat sketchy. I'm sure he is really a lovely old grandpa.

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Moore is getting rich and fat feeding that need

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I suppose he is. However, the stats he presents regarding armed murders in the US are most probably true and speak for themselves (as do the idiots he presents *without* much editing). I do think his work grows out of a genuine sentiment, which is why he goes over the top trying to find a connection between the appalling rates of gun murders and gun ownership in the US.

If I ever decided to deal with the subject I would go over the top, too. After Dunblane there was a brief discussion about whether to disallow riflemen in the UK to take their guns home from the club (you're not allowed to use it outside of the club anyway, so why bother). There was immediate outrage from the "UK gun lobby" and it never went through. To me, this makes it quite clear that many riflemen (not hunters) simply like to have their guns at home where they can lock themselves in the study and polish them at length. I find that deeply worrying.

Thomas

[This message was edited by Thomas K on FRIDAY 20 June 2003 at 09:25.]

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I do think his work grows out of a genuine sentiment, which is why he goes over the top trying to find a connection between the appalling rates of gun murders and gun ownership in the US.

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That connection is blindingly obvious.

The question is how to modify the 'gun culture'. And there isn't an easy answer (talk about trite!).

But here in the UK a substantial amount of legal gun ownership was wiped out in a kneejerk response to Dunblane yet we seem to be suffering every increasing illegal gun ownership and usage. This in itself is being used as an argument against gun law in the US.

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To me, this makes it quite clear that many riflemen (not hunters) simply like to have their guns at home where they can lock themselves in the study and polish them at length. I find that deeply worrying.

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I think the gun fetishists that we should be worried about are those who will find a way to own guns regardless of legality.

But I find the thought of wanting a gun quite creepy. OTOH the only shooting I've done was 0.22 rifles on a range at school (many years ago) and this is a very intellectually satisfying activity.

At least our police are happy to be generally unarmed and I'm not seeing government issue pistols in the street on a daily basis.

Paul

Paul,

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The question is how to modify the 'gun culture'. And there isn't an easy answer (talk about trite!).

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Just as an aside, two of the guys I work with at the university (genuinely decent blokes, by the way, who don't strike me as unbalanced or psychotic), keep loaded pistols in the glove boxes of their cars. And both guys recently applied for and got permits to carry concealed weapons, though I have no idea why they felt the need to do so. (In Kentucky it's legal to carry a gun as long as it's in the open*, say, in a visible holster or on a gun rack in your truck. But you do need a special permit if you want to tuck a pistol into your trousers, or hide a sawed-off shotgun in your trench coat.)

I'd rather the general citizenry were unarmed and that criminals who use guns be dealt with harshly (see, I can be a hard-assed conservative), but the fact is that gun ownership in the U.S. is seen by many as an integral part of American culture, history and, increasingly, patriotic expression. Like you said, there's no easy answer, and I'm beginning to believe there's no hard answer either.

Joe

* Even if you have a concealed weapons permit, it's still illegal to carry a concealed gun in certain public places. For example, the university, my bank and the local hospital all have warnings in building entrance ways that say concealed weapons are not prohibited. But if you want to carry one in the open...

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I suppose I could dig out some old textbooks if you really wanted to know, but in any event I think you would have loved lingiustics.

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Thanks, Mike. Don't break out the textbooks. It was just a random thought that made it to my keyboard.

By the way, I don't know if I would have been interested in the academic study of languages, but I do love slang and idiom.

Joe

Back to an old topic.

SWM was a book needed for its time, but for me it was ponderous and haphazard in subject matter as others in this thread have mentioned. I'm now reading the UK version of his later book, somewhat off-puttingly named "Dude, Where's My Country?" which stikes me as a much more focused effort and very thought-provoking. What especially caught my attention was the implication of how much the US (and hence the world's) economy needs the House of Saud's invested trillions. I always thought it was more of the case of the Saud family needing US help to stay in power. So it's a situation of mutual need...

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I do think his work grows out of a genuine sentiment, which is why he goes over the top trying to find a connection between the appalling rates of gun murders and gun ownership in the US.

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And:

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but the fact is that gun ownership in the U.S. is seen by many as an integral part of American culture, history and, increasingly, patriotic expression. Like you said, there's no easy answer, and I'm beginning to believe there's no hard answer either.

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According to statistics, there are more legally owned firearms per capita in Sweden than there is in the USA!

The difference, I think, is WHAT REASON they are owned for. In the US it's the reasons quoted above and probably the old "to have it for protection (against some one else wearing it "for protection")". Simply, you have it for the sole purpose of shooting other people.

Here in Sweden they are used for hunting and sports shooting. Every farmer has a bunch. The sport shooters have a bunch each. After they have been used they are unloaded and locked up.

JohanR

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Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
I wonder if "how come" is etymologically related to the French word for "why" -- "pourquoi," which roughly translates to "for what."
Joe

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And "what for?" is a common variation for "why?"

Davie

Following up to the 'House of Saud' comment:

Here is an excellent book which gives an in depth look at this 'special' relationship:
House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties