Prog Rock

Odd you should post that particular question. I am just putting a pair of Neat MFS through their paces and have got to the "prog rock" section of the day. So (and I know my definition of prog rock might be a bit wide!):

Focus - Focus III
ELP - Brain Salad Surgery
Deep Purple - Made in Japan
Camel - Snowgoose
Thijs van Leer - Introspection
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Yes - Yessongs
Jethro Tull - Aqualung

Steve

Where does rock become prog rock?

I would have thought most of Deep Purple's stuff around their heyday would have been regarded as "blues based rock". Albeit with some long tracks/jam sessions live.

Yes / Floyd / ELP and their like is what I tend to think of as Prog - long tracks, classical pretentions, themes, concepts, whacky album covers and so on. Not criticising, I enjoy quite a lot of it.

Sabbath? Surely heavy metal?

Steve.

Maiden certainly isn't prog.... but I've got everything they've ever released in one form or another......

In fact I wouldn't tag Maiden with any banner - Heavy Metal's close, but they're still much more than that



Have got buckets full of 80's metal/rock on vinyl & silver disc, and am a bit of a Floyd junkie, although nearly all my Floyd, Zep & Who is vinyl, and most of it nearly as old as I am!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
Where does rock become prog rock?...long tracks, classical pretentions, themes, concepts, whacky album covers and so on. Steve.

I agree competely Steve. Most of the stuff is barking mad. Rick Wakeman - Myths & Legends of King Arthur and Journet to the Centre of the Earth for example.

Got me thinking though. How about Vangelis? His early suff like Heaven & Hell



was probably prog as well.

Black Sabbath, well I would not define them as prog (although Ozzy does appear to be barking mad!) but as they were listed in the post I thought I throw a good one in!

Steve

quote:

How about Vangelis?

Interesting one, that. I love the stuff he did with Jon Anderson. I would never have called that Prog, but I'm not sure what I would call it.

I've never been sure of where hard rock and heavy metal begin and end either. I can't see the cache of the heavy, heavy stuff like Motorhead, Venom etc. But I love blues based rock like Bad Company - but you'll see them under Heavy Metal in some places.

In the end I just think artists rather than genre.

Steve.

I like most of what has been memtioned already. What ever bloody genre it is. Mention Prog to most people and get a blank stare or Yes, Floyd or ELP and their excessive transport vehicles.

I like "Progressive Rock" very much.

Another to add to the list;

King Crimson - One of the poineers of Prog Rock.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
I like most of what has been memtioned already. What ever bloody genre it is. Mention Prog to most people and get a blank stare or Yes, Floyd or ELP and their excessive transport vehicles.

The archetypical bands (one person's architype another person's caricature I suppose) such as the ELPs of this world, with "their excessive transport vehicles" typify what became 'prog'.

But at its deeper root, I think the clue is in the name : Progressive Rock. Progressive because it progressed things beyond the verse/chorus/verse/chorus type model. Using themes and musical ideas hitherto not found in rock music. Concepts (concept songs, concept LP sides, not just whole concept albums) developing technology with instruments, Drawing upon classical traditions, etc.

Black Sabbath Black Sabbath is definitely in this bracket, as are elements of Led Zep.

Prog is so much more than the caricature bands, in the same way that heavy rock is more than Spinal Tap.

James

Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
Gentle Giant = Octopus
Eloy = Power and the Passion
Spooky Tooth - Spooky Two

If Caravan are prog rock then Land of the Grey and Pink

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
Where does rock become prog rock?

I would have thought most of Deep Purple's stuff around their heyday would have been regarded as "blues based rock". Albeit with some long tracks/jam sessions live.

My favourite DP albums are the first three (pre-Gillan) - I think The Shield is a superb track. The third album simply titled Deep Purple has a great track called Anthem if you like that type of thing.

How about the Moody Blues - I guess it's all a question of balance.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
How about the Moody Blues - I guess it's all a question of balance.

Steppin' in a Slide Zone - definitely!

And of course through Justin Hayward there is a MB participation in one of the greatest Prog works of them all (a story made for prog!) 'War of the Worlds'.

Prog continues today, not just in those who echo the '70s sounds, but in terms of concept and values redefined for the contemporary age. Typically Radiohead and Muse (anyone who produces an album with tracks called things like 'Kinghts of Cydonia' can ONLY be Prog!)

I have to say I am waiting (in vain, I should imagine) for an ELP reunion tour. Saw Emerson when he made his comeback a couple of years ago - excellent. Would be great to see the full panoply (I just missed them first time round, about 2 years behind).

James

I'm not much of a progger, but how about early Genesis (ie with P.Gabriel)? Seconds Out, Lamb lies down, Trick of the tail,etc?
I remember seeing King Crimson live, a good many years ago now, when they toured the album with "elephant talk" on it. (I can't remember the album name, & am away from home at the mo.)Chapman stick bass,2 sets of synth.drums & some fairly mad guitar noises. Great stuff, IIRC.
matt.

quote:

If Caravan are prog rock then Land of the Grey and Pink

Well if you go by the "barking mad" def then certainly. I saw them through a haze of questionable substances in the late 70's. Barking!

Anyway go here for 11784 albums from 2403 bands - that should keep us quiet for a while

For those too lazy to click the Prog Archives suggest Gentle Giant, Frank Zappa (!), Moody Blues, Genesis, Rush (70's, 90's 00's - bit anal that), Marillion, Spock's Beard and many more. Go there it's great fun!

What about Geoff Wayne's War Of The Worlds as well?

Sevenoaks Steve - have a listen to early Vangelis - Heaven & Hell (contains his first colaboration with Jon Anderson), China, Soil Festivities. If you are into discordant beeps, blips and stuff try Beaubourg.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by manicatel:
I'm not much of a progger, but how about early Genesis (ie with P.Gabriel)? Seconds Out, Lamb lies down, Trick of the tail,etc?

The Lamb is the only one of those albubs featuring Peter Gabriel. And it shows. Most of their stuff makes me wince now, but the early output still stands up and is dark and rich enough to be considered different – call it Prog if you will. I'm with Steve here, it tends to be the artist rather than the genre, which like most genre are too loose in their application. As it was with Punk also. I think Prog was a pigeon hole into which stuff without a well defined tag went and was quickly adopted by the fashion victims.

For me two of the key indicators of "Prog" (which are still not universally applicable) are tracks that last for one side of an album (or most thereof) and tracks with multiple time signatures.

Cheers

quote:

If you are into discordant beeps, blips and stuff try Beaubourg.

Thanks SteveGa. That would probably be a leap too far. I thought the music from the time around "Friends of Mr Cairo" was great. Inventive, beautiful and nostalgic, without being indulgent.

Indulgance is where I usually part company with my "Prog" style collection. For example I liked The Yes Album & Fragile, but didn't have the patience for Tales of Topographic or similar.

With Zep I liked much of their early stuff and thought Physical Graffiti their finest achievement. However, twenty minute drum solos like Moby Dick? - no thanks.

Genesis tested my attention span at times but by and large I have enjoyed both Gabriel and Collins led albums. I'm not a Phil Collins devotee but it does surprise me that he gets so much stick on here. Some of it unnecessarily vitriolic.

ELP and King Crimson were over elaborate to me. But it all brings back happy memories of Roger Dean album covers replicated on your school bag! Happy Days.

It has to be said that my main diet was more blues based, Free, Mayall, Clapton, Hendrix, BB, Albert King, Ten Years After, Rory G etc. Then into folk/rock Jackson Browne, JT, Joni to mention just a handful. All this while my music teacher was successfully opening up the world of classical music to me. I wonder if I got her into Rory Gallagher? Possibly not.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
I wonder if I got her into Rory Gallagher?

By rights, if there's any justice, you should have done! It does fill my heart with joy that there are other Rory fans on this Forum.

Back to prog. I think I would have to include groups like The Groundhogs, because they tick so many the boxes for prog. Who wanted 'songs that last a whole song'? Well, I'm presently listening to

The Groundhog's Split

side one of which has four tracks - or rather musical movements within the concept - Split Pt1, Split Pt2, Split Pt 3, and (you've guessed it) Split Pt4.

As a yoof, I loved ELP and early Crimson, Floyd and some Genesis. Always hated (and still do, sorry)Yes.

More recently I've got back into a lot of what I got out of in my 20s.

But with the benefit of all this hindsight/reflection, I've realised it's not a question of just categorising a few groups into 'prog'.

But for the true 'progressive' movement, I think it's much more about ideas contributed and developed and the overall legacy of contribution and influence.

I shall be putting on:

ELP Tarkus

later, as so must anyone interested in prog. But please also listen to the Groundhogs' Split (and other fine albums) - a band many will simply categorise as blues/rock. And equally - from the immediate 'death of prog' era, I believe that:

Faust, The Faust Tapes

is obligatory.

But if we really want the progressive idea of a concept album, one of the very finest was released only quite recently. And with a wonderful concept sleeve to match.

Only it's not about goblins, wizards, mad computers or WWI armadilloes. Something apparently much more mundane - but all the more genius for it, and well worth the massive wait for it... washing, maths with your children, being a mum, the birds in the garden. I am thinking, of course, of the simply glorious:

Aeriel by Kate Bush.

Prog to its toes, complete with Rolf Harris.

James

quote:

Originally posted by manicatel:
I'm not much of a progger, but how about early Genesis (ie with P.Gabriel)? Seconds Out, Lamb lies down, Trick of the tail,etc?
matt.

Matt - sorry, but Trick of the Tail is a dreadful album IMHO. probably the most disappointing record I've ever bought. It does not have Peter Gabriel on it and I think that's why I found it so unrewarding. If anybody wants my copy they can have it - it hasn't been played more than a few times. I remember all the singing being monotone and flat. The humour had gone and it was just sterile. I know everybody is bound to diagree - which is fine, it's all opinion.

However, Lamb Lies Down, Selling England, Foxtrot, Trespass and Nursery Crimes were great prog albums. I firmly think Genesis should have called it a day when PG left.

PG has made some very listenable solo albums - proving he didn't need Genesis as much as they desperately needed him. Of course they sold lots of records - so I may be the only one that thinks this.

Matt, I agree totally with you about King Crimson - some great stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

Matt - sorry, but Trick of the Tail is a dreadful album IMHO. probably the most disappointing record I've ever bought. It does not have Peter Gabriel on it and I think that's why I found it so unrewarding. If anybody wants my copy they can have it - it hasn't been played more than a few times. I remember all the singing being monotone and flat. The humour had gone and it was just sterile. I know everybody is bound to diagree - which is fine, it's all opinion.

Not everyone is bound to disagree. Myself invlided. Still couldn't fault them live at that point though. Back catalogue to the rescue.

Cheers

OOps. Ok, sorry about that. Thats what happens when I post replies away from home, without my record collection to hand. TBH, I haven't listened to this stuff for ages,& I was trying hard to remember stuff from years ago. (or maybe I shouldn't post after drinking tequila!)
I do agree with the "life after genesis" thing with P.Gabriel.
matt

Other albums I forgot I liked in my youth:

Tangerine Dream - Phaedre
Edgar Frose - Epsilon in Malaysian Pale
Quintescence - Quintescence
Soft Machine - Third
The Enid - In The Region Of The Summer Stars
Can - Future Days
Nosferatu - Nosferatu

There are probably loads more which I'll post if I remember them! Oddly I do not own any of these on CD (now my only source).

Steve

Hello,

When I hear the term Progressive Rock I think of the following. These (among others) are considered to be Prog rock rather than some other groups who were hard rock and did a certain song or even full album that might be considered Prog Rock.

Gentle Giant - Octopus, In A Glass House, Three Friends, Acquiring The Taste

King Crimson - In The Court of the Crimson King, In The Wake of Poseiden, Lizards, Lark's Tongues In Aspic

ELP - First LP, Tarkus, Brain Salad Surgery, Triology

Yes - The Yes Album, Fragile, Relayer, Tales of Topographic Oceans

The album by Yes, Tales of Topographic Oceans tends to be regarded as an album that was so Prog that it caused a backlash against the genre. Sorry to open up the Tales' can-o-worms!

Scott

quote:

Other albums I forgot I liked in my youth...oddly I do not own any of these on CD. Steve

Now I remember why I left prog behind for a while. These came along:

Were none of you prog-geeks outraged when Tommy Saxondale quoted the lyrics to Spirit of Radio, attributing the song to 'Hemispheres' ???????

Surely the lyrics were from Circumstances?