Teacher shot...

It seems to me that any one who goes out and shoots someone else, may quite possibly be mentally disturbed, which is a completely different ball game, as, in my experience, a mentally disturbed person doesn't always understand repercussions, or indeed what they're doing.
just a thought.

Many moons ago in London during the Iranian Embassy siege a policeman belonging
to the Britsh Diplomatic Protection Group (DPG) who was present as a captive
throughout the siege and concealed his weapon at great discomfort by not going
to the toilet when needed (the attackers knew Brits were unarmed-generally) had
a chance at actually using it intelligently when the place was assaulted by
Special Forces.
After this case had died down and the media had had more than
their pennyworth of its obvious newsworthyness, they looked elsewhere for
further threads. The wonderful British tabloid press started a campaign of
questioning the officers actions (almost tantamount to calling him a coward).
The subsequent consequences of this personal bombardment, meant the guy couldn't
carry on his work as usual (he'd been praised for actually saving one of the
incoming soldiers lives by his actions) his children were harrassed big style at
school, missiles were thrown at his home (Dagenham) his wife became an almost
nervous wreck, as he eventually did too, and they had to move and locate
elsewhere. My point here is that the British Public were distressed that this
highly trained man had not in their eyes done a "John Wayne", which is feared
the future so-called Sky Marshals will be doing, as well as being excellent role
models for the next generation of gun toting young heros.
Just a last pointer, in
contrast with UK, Germanys Special Services GSG9 are actually Policemen, and not
Soldiers, giving them a totally different legal & Public status when carrying
out and subsequently being legally responsible for their actions, if you get my
drift ?
The above information is first hand, so I know it to be true, but like
most things in life people only want to see what they want to see, innit.

Fritz Von Wannabuyasaturdaynightspecialguvnor

Tristran,
I'm sorry but those facts just do not add up,people that are intent on useing fire arms in persuit of crime do so on their own understanding that they are not going to get caught.I for one would not like to be on the wrong end of a hand gun or a base ball bat for that matter, used in a crime, with the perpetrator knowing that if I lived long enough to identify them and if he/she knew that this would result in a very long jail sentence much less the death penalty,I don't think much of my chances of picking up my old age pension.
If the threat of the death penalty had any effect on people, Canada and America would not be experiencing a increase in Violent crimes,
in short there wouldn't be any murder, sorry it just dosn't work that way.You do not have to spend billions of dollers, you just stop the sale of fire arms to the general public,after all why does Joe Brown need a hand gun, they are totally useless for any domestic chore you can't even use them to stir your coffee.The answer is in understanding the problem and then dealing with it,it's the same scientific approach that is used in correcting all problems, there just isn't another way.
Fisbey
Sorry didn't mean to pry and cause you any discomfort or bring back any painful memories
I wish you the very best of health.
oldie.

I am not a fan of the death penalty but it must act as a deterrent in some cases.

I still maintain that imprisonment until the age of 65 (not for minors to keep Matthew happy) is the best policy.

I am not interested in knowing why someone is carrying a gun, they know it is wrong and the best bet is to remove them from society.

Regards

Mick

Graham,
I remember it well the poor bloke was hounded
off the streets, isn't it strange how everything revolves around proffit news paper sales hand guns etc. etc. whilst mealy mouthed politicians tell us they are dealing with the problems traveling in their bomb proof "cars". Reminds me how years ago , as a safty rep at Rolls Royce ,when querying the new materials we were given to work with, we were told that they were harmless I always countered this with "If thats so why don't you eat a hand full to prove it, and then I'll recommend that we work with it. As always I was never taken up with the offer.
Simon,
who's shrek??

Mick,
I'm afraid that the facts prove that the death penalty is not a deterant. do you think that Shipman, Huntley and a host of others thought that they would be caught.Most killings are domestic, close relations etc.that happen as a result of spontaneous reactions and are not premeditated so again a deterant would have no effect. with respect, you may not wish to know why these things happen,but there are a considerable number of human behaviourist that do ,why do you think that they always try to arrest and interveiw
the mass killers in our midst rather that just blasting them away, it's because they believe that if they can interveiw them, then there might be [and it's only a might be,but it's the only chance that we have] some sort of understanding of the problems that unfortunatly we all face in our modern society
Sorry to be flippantbut even at thepost office
if something went wrong I hope you tried to find out why and not just [excuse the pun]bury it. I'm afraid that it's the same principle that has to be applied, ie find out the cause, and then you can apply corrective measures it doesn't matter wether it's aircraft engines or people, without knowledge we are just wallowing in the mire, and will never move forward.
oldie.

Oldie.


I'm not sure what facts in my post you are referring to so perhaps I can make myself clear.

First there is no death penalty in Canada. I consider that an unfortuneate fact considering a couple of criminals: Paul Bernardo and Karla Hamolka. You can look up the details of these two degenerates on your own.

Second. It is clear that there is a growing and pervassive problem in Britain involving violent crime. I think that if you were to review the timing of this trend you would notice that it has escalated since strict gun control laws have been established there. I'm not sure if a direct relationship can therefore be extrapolated; but it could be.

Third. I want to make clear that a person who does not fear reprisal for their actions is inclined not only to persue the course, they will do it with great vigilance. I would not want to be on the wrong side of a criminal either; but if I do, that SOB is going to feel a world of hurt if he threatens me.

Fourth. The "understanding" business is pretty weak. It requires no understanding to realize that bringing a gun to school let alone shooting someone is inappropriate and obviously criminal. There is no need to understand the nature of the activity, it's potential results are clear. It is more important for society to make potential offenders "understand" that there will be repercussions for their actions.

Five. As for the death penalty and it's effectiveness, that one is clear. Someone who is dead cannot reoffend. I think that if you were to look deeper into the stats related to violent crime, you would discover that many of these men cannot be rehabilitated and have a perpensity to reoffend. An interesting aside: if a wild bear wanders into a campsite and kills people what happens? It is refferred to as a predator and is put down for the safety of other people. Why? Bececause once the bear has killed a person and had a "taste", he is inclined to do it again.

Lastly. I read a great book called The Dream and the Nightmare. In it the author explores the change brought about in New York city under Mayor Gulianni. The approach is interesting and perhaps a great primer for this subject. It all comes down to personal responsibility; and the fact that people who are allowed to simply do as they please, and bear no responsibility for their actions in time push the envelope to it's logical conclusion. Fear and understanding can't change that. Action, reprisal and responsibility can.

tw

Just playing Devil's advocate but....

Stating that there is no need to know why is IMHO pretty weak. Scenario time - far fetched, I've been watching too much bad TV but for instance...

Lets just for argument say that the shooter had been molested for quite some time by the victim. While I may not agree with the course of action, and would fully expect severe penalties - but now we have an inkling as to why.... Bad example I know but pick your own example. There are always going to be the nutters, but please don't dimiss the why's too quickly. Even if we occasionally learn just a little about why people go off, the sum of that knowedge is very valuable if even one tradgedy can be prevented in the future.

Slightly switching gears, I do find is quite strange to live in a country and next to another that thinks it is OK to show graphic violence or the results of said violence on television during hours when children could be watching; but it does seem that the same people think the world is ending if just one female nipple is shown.

Go figure....

regards,

michael

tristram,
just a very quicky as I'm tired and just off to bed no offence intended
but:-
1 I'm not sure I ever stated that there was a death penalty in Canada just a increase,like America,and England in violent crime.
2 We have always had strict gun controle laws no member of the general public in the UK, was ever allowed to own a gun unless they could prove that they belonged to a recognised shooting club, they were just tightend up after a particularly horrendous incident in Scotland involveing a Scout master and school children.
3 they are not going to get caught or they kill them selves so it doesn't matter, we have entered a new era now, think of suicide bombers
4 Sorry to be so emphatic about this ,but you are just plain wrong, without knowledge we will never move forward, we will always remain just above the animals,no disrespect intended to animals.
5 if you enter a bears territory you know the risk, they have been like humans programed to respond in a certain way for millenia, they only like all animals respond to two things food and reproducing their species, this we know to be fact, so if you enter their territory your possible food if you don't like that fact keep out of their territory and don't kill every thing for just responding to it's natural responces.
6 Bush / Blair sorry I shouldn't be flippant but could not resist this one.Some people are not, nor will they ever be responcible for there actions it's called mental health problems and we have to allow for this in a civilised sociaty, which brings me back to Bush and Blair who's going to make them responcible for their actions.
7 most importantly,good night my friend
I'm of to bed.
a very tired ;- oldie.
please excuse, for once any bad grammer or spelling mistakes as I can hardly see the key board.

Back to the original thread:
The boy who shot the theacher is not dutch. He is a so called "third generation allochtone". The dutch justice department preferred not to make his identy public, but said his forename was Murad....I think a lot of problems in our western society are caused by:
-difference between the "poor" and the "rich" are wider than ever.
-we shut our eyes for the real needs of children.
-we are not old fashioned anymore.Where is politeness, care for the young and old..
-we must go back to medieval times.(stone them to dead ,hang 'em on the highest three etc. problem solved.

Rob.

One positive remark:
my daughters birthday. She is eleven now ! And it worries me, because we ought to make this world a better place for the young.....
When I'm dead she has to cope with what we created.

Rob.

Good Moaning People,
Our environment does I feel indeed reflect upon our actions
and views upon life, but rich bitch kids go out on shooting sprees oh so often
as well, using usually the excuse of "Boredome" as their defence "I don't like
Mondays and all that !!"
Oldie has a good point relating to members of the
Public & guns, but we are all talking as City Folk. Each of our Countries,
especially Canada has mega farmland where gun use is quite normal².
"Responsibility" is the key word as was previously mentioned, farmers or land
managers simply could not work effectively without guns. If a dog runs wild
amongst a flock of sheep here in Germany, UK, Ireland, Holland, Canada, etc,
etc, irrespective of wether it's a lovely golden retriever or a pittbull, or
even Princess Anne for that matter, it will be shot, no questions, no debate,
sad but true.
Nutters are also strangely enough integral parts of all of our
societies, wether we like it or not in peacetime they must be placated, and
given their ground as it were (if you get my meaning ?) in Wartime without many
of these so-called Nutters, our side would not win. After battles
like the "Great War" & WWII & Korea/Vietnam etc, these folk cannot just switch
off (some of who'm were switched on by the War itself so to speak) and their
families for generations to come, suffer as a consequence and sometimes directly
repeat the cycle all over again subconsciously. Fortunately the majority of
people in most (all) societies understand the difference between a little give &
take between neighbours is not a bad thing, because if you bite without reason,
eventually (no matter how long it takes) you will be bitten back, the 20th
century began & ended with War in the key catalystic states of the Balkans if I
recall ?
The theme is the same, Responsibility, Guns, education, maybe less
virtual-reality and more reality for kids, before they wake up in a nightmare
scenario that creates real physical & Mental pain. Enforced child soldiers come
to mind (who had no choice) that are now thank God (against all the odds)
starting to live normal lives, and build their countries, having been involved
in atrocities you or I couldn't imagine in our worst nightmares, so thetre must
be HOPE innit.
Cheers, and on that happy little note, I'm off for my milk coffee,
and a chuckle over the obituries in today's Times.
Fritz Von Leeenfieldmk4

Ps. Tony Blair made an interesting subtle comment in his talk yesterday when
asked about European Security. The gist of his remark was that although Euroope
has many people in uniform, when it came down to the serious business (God
Forbid) of actual fighting, it was lacking very badly under present all round
estimates of requirement (EU's own), so all you nutters out there, get training,
there's money to be had in them there hills !!
Human Beings are intrinsically Agressive Animal that require constant self-analysys.

PPS: It is seemingly far easier to shoot somebody from a distance than knife them as in the Tragic³ Swedish case ?

Rockigdoc wrote:

quote:

---

I left school 30 years ago, but there's still one Latin master I'd like to shoot.

---

The two teachers that was worst to me in school booth died of cancer a couple of years later.
Justice enough for me.

JohanR

That good old Scandanavian sense of humour again eh ? and I thoughjt I was rough ?

Skol, Fritz Von Danishbeeriswonderful

Graham Ricketts

To Berlin Britz,(or Frits innit),

modernsocietyiisnwhatisusedtobeaintit?
Rob.

Philip Lawrence....... I wonder what differnce he could have made to many others lives....

Just a thought.....

I don't think anyone is being disrespectful to the victims of violence (or the people they leave behind), just maybe trying to ascertain what can be done about it and whether the death sentence is justified, which in my view it isn't.
Talking of people they leave behind, I wonder if one of our children committed a murder how we'd feel about the death sentence for them, would we just wash our hands of them, say they deserve it....
Big subject and clearly not a black and white one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Many moons ago in London during the Iranian Embassy siege a policeman belonging
to the Britsh Diplomatic Protection Group (DPG) who was present as a captive
throughout the siege and concealed his weapon at great discomfort by not going
to the toilet when needed (the attackers knew Brits were unarmed-generally) had
a chance at actually using it intelligently when the place was assaulted by
Special Forces.

---

Graham

PC Trevor Locke almost certainly did the right thing; he had an assault by the SAS in full flow and lets face it, would not have been able to bring anything to the party; more likely he would have risked his own life if he had used his weapon - there was the risk that one of the Troopers would have just seen a non SAS weapon and shot the man carrying it - the building was on fire at the time plus their vision was limited by the Respirators they wore.

quote:

---

Just a last pointer, in
contrast with UK, Germanys Special Services GSG9 are actually Policemen, and not
Soldiers, giving them a totally different legal & Public status when carrying
out and subsequently being legally responsible for their actions, if you get my
drift ?
The above information is first hand, so I know it to be true, but like
most things in life people only want to see what they want to see, innit.

Fritz Von Wannabuyasaturdaynightspecialguvnor

---

Sort of; Grenszschutzgruppe 9 are paramilitary Border Police who have trained and indeed operated with the SAS.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

[This message was edited by mike lacey on FRIDAY 16 January 2004 at 16:40.]

That's very interesting, I was referring to the time he was there before the assault, end of subject, thank you.
Fritz Von Wannabuyanewmotah

P.s. he did use his weapon, that's my point:

He did not use his weapon. One man, loads of terrorists with automatic weapons and explosives etc. Yeah, sure he would use a 6 shot revolver. Very briefly.

And if he did, his feat of concealing his weapon for the duration of the seige after he has used it would be a pretty good trick.

PC Locke: "Gun? What gun? I ain't gotta gun, Sir, honest"

All the terrorists " So sorry, we thought we heard a bang, saw a flash, smelt the cordite and spontaneously grew a .45 inch hole in our midriff. Our mistake, you just have a nice cup of tea."

Or not.

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

Mike,

Oversimplification won't help.

Rob.

Rob

You will have to expand on "oversimplification." Not sure what you mean, to be truthfull.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

I would have thought DPG officers were quite well trained.....

weren't you at that CB-DBing that was never covered due to press ban ?
Wasn't Willies face a picture ?
Cheers, Fritz Von Beendrinkin