Speaker cable lengths - a question

Before the topic veers off onto a tangent, I'd just like to defend Naim and argue that surely if their motivation was to make more money out of the sale of speaker cables then A5 would be more expensive, rather than being as cheap as it is - around £7/m isn't it?

The Nordost is a little more expensive per metre, which is why I can't possibly consider a 5m pair - I have to eat for goodness sakes - but I can just about stretch to the 2m pair as it's all I really need and saves having a lot of the Red Dawn cable going unused...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Hi TC

If it's a non Naim amp it would probably benefit from shorter lengths. With my Amps I recently moved from 2 x 3.5 Mtrs to 2 x 7 Mtrs and it sounded much better, more in control sort of thing. And don't go giving Naim ideas as £7.00 is IMHO ridiculously cheap compared to the alternatives.

Yours in Music

Syd

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Before the topic veers off onto a tangent, I'd just like to defend Naim and argue that surely if their motivation was to make more money out of the sale of speaker cables then A5 would be more expensive, rather than being as cheap as it is - around £7/m isn't it?

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You wait - I bet A500 will appear at some stage.

David

Paul,

Yes, I've since contacted Martin @ DNM, and whilst he obviously sees no need for anyone to use anything other than DNM in a DNM-based system, he reckons 2m would be the minimum, so I should be in the clear.

I know from my own experience than the DNM cable works well - it's a fine cable at a very reasonable price - but I also know that it can definitely be improved upon - though I needed to go up to Nordost Red Dawn to get a cable which improved in all areas.

I'm considering the SPM because I use SPM throughout as interconnects and it remains the best interconnect I've come across by some margin (never tried Valhalla and that's the way I intend it to remain just in case it's as good as they say). The fact I'm talking 2m lengths is simply because 2m lengths are what's on offer. I'd prefer 3m (for a bit of leeway) but there's no chance of me ever considering buying a new set of SPM at the ridiculous prices they're asking.

Thanks for the thought, though, and FWIW I wish I'd never looked beyond the DNM as I opened a can of worms that has cost me dearly (but introduced a lot more music too.... )

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I've used a 2m set of A5 on a nap150 for more than 6 months without a hint of instability. The amp sounded solid and powerful as it still does with a 5m set. I prefer to follow advise, but at the time, a cd5,112,150 didn't leave much change for cable, and the 2m lengths were from a previous krell set up that advised to keep lenghts as short as possible in order to save on amplifier power???
Mario.

Hey TC,

If you really want to cry into your beer, listen to the new DNM interconnect with the bullet plugs on. My experiments with bullet plugs have been quite astounding!

Furthermore, on the subject of speaker cables, have yourself a listen to Townshend's Isolda - a lot cheaper than Nordost and miles better value in my view. But then I don't really like the Nordost character...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

TC,

most power amps include a 'Zobel network' in the output stage to ensure stabililty of the amp. Naim NAPs (*) do not, and rely on the inductance of 3.5m of A5 instead.

If the DNM claims to be 'unconditionally stable' without any specific length or type of cable then I presume any length of A5 would be safe.

As for sound quality vs length, I have no idea myself, but remember PS made a very illuminating posting on this subject about six months ago.

cheers, Martin

(*) the NAP6-50 is an exception to this It is designed for multi-room setups, and most people wouldn't want to run 30m pairs of NAC A5 from room to room!

are we far enough off topic for me to add another question into this one? (this question definately doesn't warrant its own thread)
How critical is it for the cables to be of the same length in a system? one of my speakers sits very near my stand, and the other is across the room, which has me cabling under the house, so do I need to have a 15 foot coil of cable next to my stand to preserve the same lengths? and yes I do realize my room is probably far from ideal.
thanks for the help.

Yes, your cables should be the same length. The amplifier "sees" the cable length and it a.) may not be very good for it, and b.) will sound different. Think of those poor input stages receiving the same signal and not outputing into the same load.

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listen to the new DNM interconnect with the bullet plugs on. My experiments with bullet plugs have been quite astounding!

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It's good cable, eh? I ran 5m lengths of DNM before moving to Nordost. Whilst I find the DNM cable very good for the money, in a DNM-based system the Nordost is a very positive step.

Can't comment on interconnects as I can only use DIN plugs in my system (something, along with star-earthing, that DNM has in common with Naim) and the DNM DIN plug is a minimum metal content plug which has all the qualities of Eichmann plugs but in a DIN. Sadly, Nordost flatline interconnects won't fit it - and so I needed to get the inferior Nordost DIN plugs...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I'm getting Eichmann bullet plugs fitted to all my DNM ICs (apart from the one that comes out of the CDS2). I'll post a brief report . . .

Alex


happy dnm & isolda user

Frank,

Have you tried the Townshend interconnects - if so what do you think?

David

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My experiments with bullet plugs have been quite astounding!

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I can vouch for these too – I used them on my P9 and still have them on the length of Aro lead that connects my phono stage to the amp. I just haven’t got round to fitting them to the LP12 yet (they are just sitting on my shelf waiting…) – I will probably wait until an Aro shows up...

The Bullets are without doubt the best sounding RCA plugs I have heard. I was always of the opinion that cheap light ones sounded much better than the heavy solid audiophile ones, and the Eichmann Bullets just take this to the extreme. I’m just waiting for them to bring out a matching low mass socket, as IMHO the job is only half done so far! It is interesting to note Eichmann’s logic in the design of the Bullet plug is pretty much the same as Naim’s in logic choosing BNC’s or DINs – low mass / impedance matching etc.

My only criticism of the Bullets is that the little screw cable grip is total crap when using thin cables, which means that you have to be careful handling them so as not to put strain on the solder joint. They could definitely do with improving the design here.

Tony.

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I was always of the opinion that cheap light ones sounded much better than the heavy solid audiophile ones, and the Eichmann Bullets just take this to the extreme. I’m just waiting for them to bring out a matching low mass socket, as IMHO the job is only half done so far! It is interesting to note Eichmann’s logic in the design of the Bullet plug is pretty much the same as Naim’s in logic choosing BNC’s or DINs – low mass / impedance matching etc.

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Interesting point. Have you tried replacing your Naim DIN plugs with the even-lower-mass, minimal contact (as per Eichmann) DNM DIN plugs? I sadly can't use them due to my cable being too bulky, but the principle is the same as with the Eichmann RCA Phono plugs, but for DIN connections.

DNM also make plastic, minimal metal, minimum contact DIN sockets, so if you were brave enough to modify your own Nait-2, I'm sure you could easily take advantage of these sockets - I'm sure you could get them from DNM for a reasonable price...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Hahaha, that was mad...

Just to see how it sounded, I tried the little Nait-2 with the SPM I'm trialing, and you know, the wee amp coped admirably... in fact, I can categorically state that with Neat Petite III speakers, SPM is a far better (and much more expensive) option than the A5 I normally use.

Then again, it bloody ought to be. It just gives you more, and reveals the Nait to be a far more capable amp than the A5 was allowing... just thought I'd mention it, throw the metaphorical cat amongst the pidgeons.

Not that I advocate using SPM with a Nait-2 - I think you could spend the cash more wisely in this situation - e.g. 72/140/HC/DNM Reson, which would weigh in at the same price as the SPM...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

David (Booth),

The Bullet plugs are RCAs so no, they won't fit into your Naim preamp. This was a comment aimed at non-Naim systems.

Naim speaker cable remains the only speaker cable to use in Naim systems as far as I'm concerned. I've played with the Townshend on the Naim amps and although it's better in some ways, it upsets the overall balance achievable with NACA5. Naim really design their amps with NACA5 in mind and the benefits are most acute in the form of balance. Any other speaker cable tends to highlight one or other part of the spectrum in my view.

David (Hobbs-Mallyon), I have replied to you via email, but to recap:

I have a fair bit of experience with the interconnects. They don't enjoy the universal approval of the speaker cable. It's rare in my shop for any one component to have approval from all the members of the shop. The speaker cable is one of the very few which does. I am possibly the only one who thinks the interconnect is very good indeed. However, even I haven't gone for it in my system. It brings distinct benefits in terms of openness and speed, but it can be a little too much, not quite relentless but unforgiving nonetheless. A case ot try before you buy. I can certainly understand why some people would love it, but I can also understand why they would leave it.

I'm a bit of a fan of holistic approaches to building systems. For example, I think that using the same make of interconnect and speaker cable often results in a uniform balanced solution since you're restricting the number of designers. It's almost a case of "too many cooks" when the mix'n'match process goes too far. There are like-minded designers of course, such as Chord Co and Naim Audio, or Chord Electronics and Wilson benesch, so I tend tot hink of them in one basket. However, in my case I thought the interconnect's advantages weren't outweighed by the disadvantages. Since my system's balance is so good I make changes rarely, and only if they're emphatic improvements.

Incidentally, I'm not sure if the interconnect has a weird impedance - the speaker cable does so the interconnect may do so as well. Any breakages caused through trying the Townshend interconnect with a Naim preamp would be on your own head...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.