10mm dedicated spurs

Last week I have make some conversation with my electrician and after I have told him that I want 10mm spur he have looked at me like I am stupid idiot while his asistent have make circles with his eyes.
They were trying to convince me that I do not need 10mmm. I have told them that I also do not know if I anyway need 10mm, but I said that I want 10mm.
I expect them soon, but they would be surprised when they come again and when I ask them to pay attention to spur cable direction.

I think that they will speak for years to their friends how they were installed 10mm spur with some cable direction and all that to some psycho (me)....but I don't care anyway

Oz

quote:

Originally posted by Ozren Herold:
Last week I have make some conversation with my electrician and after I have told him that I want 10mm spur he have looked at me like I am stupid idiot while his asistent have make circles with his eyes.
They were trying to convince me that I do not need 10mmm. I have told them that I also do not know if I anyway need 10mm, but I said that I want 10mm.
I expect them soon, but they would be surprised when they come again and when I ask them to pay attention to spur cable direction.

I think that they will speak for years to their friends how they were installed 10mm spur with some cable direction and all that to some psycho (me)....but I don't care anyway

Oz

You should see the expression when you tell them you want a £15,000 cd player, a £14,000 pre amp, 3 x £13,000 power amps, a £14000 pair of speakers and a whole heap of cables and racks................... perhaps best to keep the cost of a Hi Line to yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Merto:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
The purpose of the dedicated radial is to connect the hi-fi system back to the consumer unit with minimum impedance.

This is the bit that intrigues me. Wouldnt a dedicated ring offer lower impedence than a spur and no greater antenna effect if run together?

No - A dedicated ring will have more impedance, hence the dedicated radial.

regards

quote:

Originally posted by Ozren Herold:
Last week I have make some conversation with my electrician and after I have told him that I want 10mm spur he have looked at me like I am stupid idiot while his asistent have make circles with his eyes.
They were trying to convince me that I do not need 10mmm. I have told them that I also do not know if I anyway need 10mm, but I said that I want 10mm.
I expect them soon, but they would be surprised when they come again and when I ask them to pay attention to spur cable direction.

I think that they will speak for years to their friends how they were installed 10mm spur with some cable direction and all that to some psycho (me)....but I don't care anyway

Oz

I had somewhat the same conversation and bewildered looks from my electrician and it was the talk and amusement then of the builder, plasterer and plumber. The long grey thick wires are in place tho and i'm sure their source of amusement will move on quickly

diccus

Diccus,

When do you get to play with your new toy? Hope the shingles are not giving you too much gip. All that excitement about a new manager I expect!

Nic

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Andy

Count.d is actually spot on.

I know nothing about electricity and it is something that I stay well clear of. However before I retired, I spent 14 months working in the energy supply industry for gas and electricity.

Nearly all of the electrical guys were members of the Institute of Electrical Engineers which is about as high as you can go. Their knowledge is unbeatable.

I had chats to several of them relating to computers and hifi.

The advice was consistent. PC's work well off the ring circuit but good hifi works best with a single spur, 6mm cable and a 15amp crabtree socket.

That is qualified advice ... end of discussion.

Regards

Mick

Certainly the New Zealand Naim distributor recommends a single 6mm spur. (HUGE 19mm Earth wire and 30AMP ceramic fuse).
Certainly a huge upgrade.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by nicnaim:
Diccus,

When do you get to play with your new toy? Hope the shingles are not giving you too much gip. All that excitement about a new manager I expect!

Nic

We should be able to move back in in early November, a bit longer than the estimated date of 15th August! should be able to hear it by then. Shingles getting better but struggling to drive and only the last couple of days have got me back on the computer. Thanks for the thought.

Exciting times at the SOL. i think Keane, backed by the irish consortimium is inspired. Passion back on Wearside. Come on the Reds.

Diccus

Lets face it.

Electricians (myself included) hate working with 10mm cable as it is very inflexible when installing it.

However, if 10mm is better than 6mm, why not use 16mm?

Chaps

I have already told you that the people in the electrical supply industry have told me that 6mm is the highest you need to go. These guys are responsible for the supply of engergy right up to the socket. They know what theu are talking about so please stop all this waffle about 10mm. You are misleading people.

Regards

Mick

When the word "experts" is usd I am reminded of various experts that give evidence in court - does the name Meadows ring any bells.

As for Mick's heavy power friends have they actually listened to any HiFi with different cables. What is their hearing frequency range.

Derek

I am trying to ensure that the correct advice is carried out and not diluted with ill informed advice from lesser educated individuals.

I have already explained that my knowledge of electricity is all but non existant. The people that I had liaised with were highly qualified engineers who were responsible, not just for ensuring that power reach buildings but also for specialist wiring applications such as hospitals and defence establishments etc.

They are aware of torrodial transformers and the need for clean electricity to improve the sound.

They advised that a 6mm single spur was the best bet and that although 10mm could be fitted, it was frankly a waste of time and effort. There was an argument against multiple spurs but to be honest, it went over my head.

I have taken the trouble to pass on this information and counter advice from less educated sources is unhelpfull to people considering the idea. You could be the cause of a less than perfect sound from their equipment.

I know these people are trying to be helpful but they are in reality confusing the picture and giving the wrong information.

The best advice is 6mm single spur with a 15 amp unfused / unswitched socket.

I installed a 6mm single spur ending with a 13 imp socket on the advice of Julian Vereker.

Please let there no more counter productive advice on this subject.

Regards

Mick

Derek,
I see little point in the debate with Mick as he 'knows' he is correct (in his own mind).
I know my system sounds better to me after the change to 10, from 6, (which was previously 4)
so I have done a fair amount of listening. Then I stand acused of 'auto suggestion'. (That is absolute rot Mick - though I absolutely couldn't care as to what you think).
Like you, so long as it is safe and done by qualified people, I fail to see how they can say '6mm is as far as you need to go' without them all listening to hi fi with different cables.
When people start to act like dictators (do as I say or it's wrong) I lose interest very quickly.

Steve

I am not worried whether you are losing interest or not. What does concern me is that newbies who come here for sensible information are being mislead by bad advice.

Frankly I hope you lose interest so that only good professional advice is heard.

You are becoming counter productive.

Regards

Mick

quote:

The best advice is 6mm single spur with a 15 amp unfused / unswitched socket.

And this is what you call 'good advice' ?

An unfused socket? That is illegal in the UK!
It should be - an unswitched socket with 6mm cable & fused at 15A at the consumer unit. (in your post)

As ever, you will have the last word - as you always have to, but at least people can make up their own minds.

Steve

You have just demonstrated your lack of knowledge.

15 amp round pin sockets are unfused, are still used in professional environments and do not breach any insurance policies.

Best that either you gen up on the subject or remain silent.

Regards

Mick

I would like to say words fail me... but I beleive these are still required to be fused at the consumer unit. I finished with my round pin plugs when I changed from 4 to 6mm as I could not disern any improvement with them.

So now we have to use un-swithed round pin sockets & plugs.

Your advice gets more interesting and entertaining.

Steve

I am not arguing for the sake of it. I was also surprised about the 15 amp socket, but they are still made by MK Electric (the best you can get)because there is a specialist need for them.

True, they still need to be fused at the consumer unit.

I am repeating the advice of men whose job it is to design cabling systems for specialised applications.

Commen sense says that you take that advice when, as I have already stated, these men are familiar with the requirements of high end audio equipment.

Regards

Mick

I think it's fair to say that some beneficial results come from situations that defy logic, and can be accounted for retrospectively by trying to understand the effect. It is not always the best approach to design "by the book" without remaining open-minded to illogical benefits.
I am continually lectured by a friend of mine* who is a highly qualified computer software designer that it is nonsense to claim differences between CD players, when considering the fact that the signal being extracted from the CD is digital. It (apparently) either is extracted, or it is not. End of story. His loss IMO.
(* Actually my uncle who is a professor at Imperial College)

quote:

That is qualified advice ... end of discussion.

Mick,

I am always polite and reasonable with you - perhaps you would do me the same in return.

I don't dispute your source, but I heard what I heard. So, I have passed on the 'benefit' of what I heard accordingly. Have you tried 10mm2's? if not, you don't comply with the 'best evidence rule. BTW - note I say the 10mm2 were better than the ring main or a single 10mm2 plus hydra.

Also, give folk credit for being able to do their own research, and make their own mind up. By all means voice your opinion in public, but expect it to be challenged on any forum, never mind this one, if folk dont agree with it.

regards

andy.

Andy

An expert is an expert. To quote Berlin fritz, we do not tell you were to place you speed cameras.

If you want to use 10mm cable then do so but there will be no gain.

Regards

Mick

Mick,
In notts actually people do influence where to place my camera's, cos they crash using speed related factors. The differance also is that other measures are used other than camera's. The 'expert' here is one who can actually decide on the right option to use, given a certain set of criteria. Even so, Speed camera's don't always reduce crashes, do they. As such, your analogy is misplaced.

Have you consulted anyone who has actually compared 6mm to 10mm in their own setup. This equals practical application and testing of theories, does it not?

PS - I have not done this comparison - I'm just labouring the point.

andy

Andy

I have not tried 10mm. I used 6mm on the advice of Julian Vereker.

He gave the same advice as the experts I consulted and that is more than good enough for me.

Regards

Mick

Hi,

I also use 6mm cable with superb results and am happy at that, i have not tried 10mm and do not intend to as it's physically is to hard to work with and impractical with my installation.

regards

The problem with Mick is he'll blindly accept the advice of so called "experts" and others in positions of authority.

A more sceptical approach will more likely ensure that we are served better by those empowered to make our lives better.

Having just bought a house I'm looking at the possibility of a dedicated spur.

Steven

These men and JV were not "so called" experts as you put it, they are true experts.

They have carried out so many experiments on this sort of thing, that they have lost count.

The advice offered was simple.

6mm gives optimum results. If you want to use 10mm or even larger, then do so, but it will have no effect on the electricity and no effect on your system.

A single spur is better and that multiple spurs will have a less beneficial effect for reasons that I honestly did not understand.

If you want the best system, then go for a single 6mm spur. If you want to ignore that advice, then do so. It will be your loss not mine.

Regards

Mick