Rap Music 20 years on
Posted by: Shayman on 24 May 2006
Not most people's cup of tea here but just thought I'd see what anyone else thinks about the evolution (or not) of Rap music.
It first came to my attention in about 1984 and I listened to it a lot between 84 and 89. In 84 it seemed completely alien and a radical new musical movement which really grabbed me. Over the next 5 year there was a rapid evolution from the first tinny, street poetry recordings of Grand Master Flash/Melle Mel etc to bigger beats with the likes of Run DMC, LL Cool J, Tone Loc etc. then came the white Bad Boy image and lyrics of Beastie Boys, 3rd Base etc and the evolution towards inner city rage and confronting societies poor treatment of America's Black population with NWA and Public Enemy. We even had the forays into peaceful rap by the likes of De La Soul. By the end of the 80's sampling was starting to be used in all forms, using clips from old pop, Blues and Soul tunes. Happy days up til this point.
Now, the point of this post came to me when listening to Straight Outta Compton the other night for probably the first time in 5 or 6 years. It struck me that following the initial rapid evolution of rap music in those early years apparently absolutely nothing new has happened to the genre since. Other than the next new thing coming along and doing exactly what last years next new thing did nothing has changed for the best part of 17 years.
Maybe this is why my music tastes (thankfully) moved on. But what is it that happened? Is it dead as a musical form....or can anyone disprove my theory?
Any opinions?
Jonathan
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Chris Kelly
A genre which has left me completely cold I have to say. It's weird. I love the Blues in its many different guises yet rap, hip hop etc leave me utterly cold. I am a middle aged middle class white Brit, so how does one touch my soul but not the other? Is it purely a manifestation of old fart syndrome?
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Guido Fawkes
Didn't Frank Zappa do it in 1974 on Overnight Sensation and Apostrophe?
You're right though subsequent efforts are not really my cup of tea.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by thejejk
I listened to rap at about the same time as you Jonathan, albeit started a bit later, about 86 or so. But you forgot one of my then favorites Erik B & Rakim! Come to think of it my music listening at that time was kind of schizofrenic as I was listening to bands like Pink Floyd and Marillion at the same time
Although I'm not really that into the rap scene anymore I wouldn't say it hasn't evolved since the late eighties. Missy Elliot, Danger Mouse and even P Diddy sure don't sound eighties. But then again, in my eyes one of the more clear tendencies the last few years have been the return to old-school rap - so back to square one I guess!
/Jacob
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by jcs_smith
I used to absolutely adore rap, but for me it peaked with gangsta rap. NWA, Ice Cube, Doctor Dre, Snoop and to a certain extent Ice T. At their peak they were superb. I don't include Public Enemy in gangsta rap but I think they were the best of the lot. After them rap mutated into a sort of karaoke stuff - maybe because using multiple samples became too expensive - lawyers screw up everything. So they used one sample all the way through and for me this became uncreative and dull. It didn't help that the really talented people basically lost it. In general most musicicians only have 2 or 3 good records in them and that was certainly the case for Public Enemy, Professor Griff and the varous members of NWA, and I don't think there has been many interesting people to replace them. Eminem and Missy Elliot obviously are good but I'm not keen.
Funnily enough I still like French rap. People like MC Solaar and NTM are doing interesting stuff and rap over the top of drum and bass is wonderful. Adam F, Aphrodite, Roni Size, they use rappers and take it into a much more interesting direction. Rap has become the new rock music, it's the dominant force, it's a financial leviathan and it's become tedious.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by manicatel
Rap with a silent "C", imho.
matt.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by jcs_smith
Don't think someone who likes Joe Jackson or Donald Fagen is speaking from a position of strength here
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by thejejk
Heh... for a while I thought I'd try to "grow up", so I bought the latest Fagen - big mistake... even though it sounds good on the stereo it's quite boring. But MIA's 'Pull up the people' sounds good on my stereo as well, and is more interesting.
And speaking of the future of rap, like you say jcs the most interesting things of late seem to come from Europe; grime for example.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by manicatel
JCS,
What gives you the right to judge someones "position of strength", relative to your own? Can I assume the snidey reference to Jackson/Fagen fan is referring to me?
Yes, I like some of their work, amongst others.
IMHO,this forum exists to air views on hi-fi & music, & my opinion is at least as valid as yours.
If you wish to get into a pissing competition as to who has the better musical taste/knowledge, maybe find another place to do it. Maybe the school playground?
matt.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by thejejk
Matt,
Maybe my not so good understanding of the small nuances in the english language is in play, but I think your one-liner about (c)rap was equally out of line in this thread.
Regards,
Jacob
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by jcs_smith
Well actually I've always thought that having a big record collection is a sign of bad musical taste and I have a huge number of records so I'm not pretending to speak from a position of strength either. No way am I suggesting that my opinions are better than yours, but remember you are the one that joined a thread on rap music by saying that rap has a silent C. Seriously, you should lighten up. After all, you must have expected a reaction to your rap posting. You should be able to take a gentle ribbing about Donald Fagen - I get it all the time about my devotion to Pete Namlook and Bill Laswell and probably deservedly so
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by manicatel
Yeah, maybe so. A lot of my mates rib me about my taste in music. Namlook/Laswell are new to me, so I'll have to investigate, in case I'm missing out.
The (c) thing mayhave been a little cheap, but I didn't really want to go into great length about my views on rap, eg largely flat/undynamic rhythm, childish lyrical couplets & aimed at MTV generation. The message, by grandmasterflash I quite liked,& I think M&M's videos are v. funny, but that really is about it for me & rap.
I guess many other pieces of successful music could be labelled with my above criticisms, the blues, reggae, ambient, etc but to me rap is far more one-dimensional than those genres.
matt.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Malky
Oh really. In that case I don't know what I ever saw in Public Enemy, The Pharcyde, The Jungle Brothers, Wu Tang Clan, Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy or Michael Franti and Spearhead;
"Can you see me on MTV? Hell no!"
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Chief Chirpa
Word up dawgs!
Try Dilated Peoples, Common, Khalaznikhov(sp?), and Talib Kweli for some more recent efforts.
All the best,
Nicholas
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by manicatel
Malky-- I honestly don't know what you saw/see in wu tang clan/public enemy, et al. Maybe a raw energy/vibe/excitement?
I guess thats what initially attracted me to punk, way back when. There could be some similarities, in that I think punk put the music back into the hands of teenagers. Not much talent, but bags of attitude, & some punks did make some great music.
But I can't get into it at all, certainly can't sit down & listen to it.
matt.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Malky
[QUOTE]Originally posted by manicatel:
Malky-- I honestly don't know what you saw/see in wu tang clan/public enemy, et al. Maybe a raw energy/vibe/excitement?-
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your loss Matt. I'm not a hip-hop nut by any means but I regard the bands I've mentioned as producing some of the most exciting, innovative and revolutionary music of the last twenty years. I must admit I'm not up with latest developments.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by manicatel
I too am not very "up" on the lateset scene. I like Athlete, hard-fi, bits of kaiser chiefs & franz ferdinand, but Coldplay & their clones leave me cold. Which leaves me where, exactly?
Well, looking at this forum, & cherry picking ideas. Stuff that I couldn't get into 1st time around,eg Massive Attack & Fun Lovin Criminals.Also, trying more jazz for example.Oh, & the Honeydogs, Owsley, etc (big thanks to whoever mentioned these bands. I forget who it was now).
I can Kinda see the"exciting" thing, but where you see revolutionary, I only see stagnating use of cliches & repetition.
OK, not getting public enemy is my loss,but it's one that I'm very at ease with.
matt
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by nicnaim
Not sure if it is really classed as rap or not, but about the only disc of this genre I have, is Snoop Doggy Dogg + Doggystyle. One of my sisters bought it for me from the States when it came out in '93. At the time I hated it, but it comes up every now and again on the iPod shuffle, and I actually quite like it now, musically. Lyrically it is outrageous, but the tunes are ok.
Nic
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by nicnaim
Forgot that I've got White Lines on 12", now that was a good record.
Nic
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by jasons
quote:
Originally posted by nicnaim:
Forgot that I've got White Lines on 12", now that was a good record.
Nic
Respect
And not forgetting A.T.C.Q.
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Sir Cycle Sexy
Hip hop was an underground movement which dispersed once exposed to mainstream, due to this you'll find bits of it all over the place. Robbing other people's stuff, mixing it up and putting it back together differently very much suits a digital age.
How about the UK's Jonathan More and Matt Black both for their Coldcut output and their entire Ninja Tunes stable? There's very little Ninja stuff that isn't rooted in hip hop.
Manchester's Grand Central Records' Andy Turner as AIM – almost filmic in his story telling and the 'means of his production' is classic hip hop.
In the states Buck 65 is mixing it with bluegrass. I'm having a Royce da 5 9 moment myself, his fifth album is rumoured to be a DJ Premier production. Just think, we could have had Royce but Eminem and Dre chose Fiddy: living proof that rap and hip hop now have little to do with each other – 50 can't even get shot properly let alone rap properly. These days it's all about the money.
Hip Hop at the movies: Menace II Society, Dead Presidents, Juice, Boyz n the Hood, Colors, New Jack City. Rockstar North built Grove Street from shots of run down LA in Colors and maybe Training Day had an influence. All that stuff is on Playstation in the GTA series so maybe hip hop touched software development too.
Favourite past rappers? Gil Scott-Heron and Parlour Talk.
C
Eric B for President!
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by Scott in DC
Hello,
Full disclosure here, I'm a white guy who hasn't ventured into rap.
That said I think that rap has the same problem as much of rock music. Been there, done that. Much of the innovation is already done, the "new" isn't so new any more. I also think that rap is an easy target of itself, the big gold chains, warm up suits, gangsta posturing, etc. It's all about as commercial as commercial gets. At least by now it is...
Just my two cents, thanks.
Scott
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by nicnaim
quote:
Originally posted by jasons:
And not forgetting A.T.C.Q.
Sorry Jasons, I'm obviously being a bit slow here, ATCQ = ?
Just dug out my copy of White Lines, recorded in '83!!! Where did the time go?
Regards
Nic
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Nic,
The time went all too fast! Fred
PS: Boult died in 1983, exactly 50 years less than one day after Elgar. Just nonesenses one remembers in the drunken haze!...
Wish me luck tomorrow with the medical. Well the nurzse ought to recognised the symptoms...
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Apropo's the topic. I rememeber Dennis Norden doing a rap thing on My Music (where has the BBC gone, at least as far as music is concerned?) wher he showed, most convincingly, that the stress would randomly fall on the the wrong sy-lab-al, which was hilarious. I could never take the genre seriously after that send up..
Fredrik
Posted on: 24 May 2006 by jasons
quote:
Originally posted by nicnaim:
quote:
Originally posted by jasons:
And not forgetting A.T.C.Q.
Sorry Jasons, I'm obviously being a bit slow here, ATCQ = ?
Regards
Nic
A Tribe Called Quest
