Favorite Operas

Don't forget Janacek's Vec Makropulos, which is probably his most powerful work. I only know the Mackerras version (who else with this composer?), but it seems excellent.

Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is worth listening to, and can be quite funny in places.

I've been looking for a copy of Schnittke's Life with an Idiot so far without success - is there a current version available?

I'm sure that your dismissal of Italian opera is tongue in cheek; Verdi's Otello and Simon Boccanegra are clearly amongst the greatest of all operas.

Unfortunately I've never been able to get along well with either Berg or Strauss, and they would not get onto my list - my fault, probably.

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
[T]he language problem makes broadening my understanding tremendously hard work. How do you deal with this aspect?

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I actually enjoy this aspect of opera quite a bit. It is clear that some languages just sound better when sung than others. French is that way, as are both Czech and Polish. (I think Polish is incredibly beautiful when sung.) English and German ain't so hot by comparison. Of course I always keep the translations close at hand when listening as well.

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Originally posted by DJH:
I've been looking for a copy of Schnittke's Life with an Idiot so far without success - is there a current version available?

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I don't think so. Fortunately, one local library always has a copy of the Rostropovich recording on hand. I have a burned copy, but without the libretto it's useless. I'm certainly on the lookout for more Janacek. There are some recordings other than those by Mackerras available, mostly on the Supraphon label. Naive recently released a Haitink / Mattila led production of Jenufa that I might consider. And that Ligeti is on my list of "to get" items, but it looks like it might be a special order item.

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Originally posted by DJH:
I'm sure that your dismissal of Italian opera is tongue in cheek; Verdi's Otello and Simon Boccanegra are clearly amongst the greatest of all operas.

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Perhaps partly. I enjoyed Falstaff quite a bit, and Bellini is surprisingly good, but other than that, ugh!



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Todd-
I never really got on with the Italian operas either, saving, perhaps for the occasional passage in Aida. I love the Germans also, especially Strauss. Lots of powerful stuff in Wagner, especially Götterdämmerung, but I have a tough time sitting through a whole performance of any Wagner opera.
My favorite opera composer, however is Janácek. I most recently heard Jenufa here in SF, and it was stupendous (was is really almost 2 yrs. ago?) Also heard Kata Kabanova in SF, which is another favorite.

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Originally posted by DJG
Don't forget Janacek's Vec Makropulos, which is probably his most powerful work.

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You really think so? Not IMO. Jenufa is his most powerful, Vec Makropulos placing roughly 4th, behind the afore mentioned works, and The Cunning Little Vixen (which I love - I've got the Mackerras version).
BTW, when I was at the Jenufa performance, I'd have to say that my appreciation of the choral writing therein was greatly enhanced by my early exposure to Janácek's choral pieces for unaccompanied Male Choir, and Female Choir. Do you know them? If not, check 'em out. They're fantastic! Which reminds me of the Strauss stuff for unaccompanied choir - Der Abend, the German Motets, etc. - but don't get me started!

My Life with an Idiot

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJH:
I've been looking for a copy of Schnittke's Life with an Idiot so far without success - is there a current version available?

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I don't think so. Fortunately, one local library always has a copy of the Rostropovich recording on hand. I have a burned copy, but without the libretto it's useless.

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I don't know what they did with the only existing recording of Life with an Idiot. It looks like they made 5000 copies for worldwide sales, and they have all been long gone. That is: when we were vacationing in Andalucia recently I walked into a dept store (called Corte Ingles) in midsize provincial city Murcia. Spanish dept stores look like hell, usually, however at the far end I noticed a veritable wall of opera - in a midsize provincial city, wwhere you'd mostly expect mega sales of the collected episodes of Friends (dubbed in Spanish).

As I approached the giant wall of opera some weird excitement got over me. This was going to be my last chance on earth to get an original copy of Life with an Idiot! This store had every single opera in the history of man! Yet no one is going to get Schnittke in a midsize provincial city! It had to be there. I was so excited I forgot the composer's name. All I knew was it was between Prokofiev's P and Tchaikovsky's T and it was a Sony disc.

Turned out I was right. It was my lucky day. There it was. Pretty dusty, after all those years on a provincial shelf, uncared for, unwanted, the Last Ever Copy of Schnitkke's Life with an Idiot. Needless to say I got a 40 % discount because they weren't even supposed to stock items that old.

Teehee! Life is good (in Andalucia)! Goodbye to the discs a German aquaintance burned.

Incidentally, Todd. I'm a bit baffled by the absence of Don Giovanni, Prokofiev's War and Peace and, of course, Tchaikovsky's Pique Dame and/or Eugen Onegin - I know you have this huge Tchakovsky problem, but it should not apply to his best works.

Herman

Herman - is this a true story, or are you just trying to wind me up? Either way, you should immediately send me the burned discs that you mention.

Peter - yes, I really do rate Vec Makropulos that high, with Jenufa and Kata Kabanova as other favourites. I have always found the Vixen to be a little twee, and rarely if ever listen to it now. In fact, I'll swap it for Herm's copy of Schnittke's Idiot.

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Originally posted by DJH:
Herman - is this a true story, or are you just trying to wind me up? Either way, you should immediately send me the burned discs that you mention.

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David, would I lie about this? The story is true. Trust me, my stories always are.

And I can prove it, by sending you those two discs someone burned for me, free of charge. Remember though, you'd have to rustle up a copy of the libretto yourself.

If you're interested just PT me your full address.

Herman

Done!

Todd,

Presumably Beethoven was an accidental omission?

You really should try and get over this Italian problem - perhaps you should start with Monteverdi.

I'd agree with Herman about Tchaikovsky and I'd also add Queen of Spades to your listening list.

Personally, having recently seen Handel's Semele (officially a masque), I'm coming to the conclusion that I'd like to hear a lot more of his operas.

And whilst not necessarily ideal home listening, I'd recommend getting to see some of Birtwistle's operas.....cue Nick Lees.

David

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
At the end of the day opera is a thing to see live and it is rarely captured on disc.

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Amen. As David H-M has often said (and he's probably the opera-goer here), as a way to get to know an opera you're better off with a middling performance than the best cd.

Herman

Herman,

I expect that throb gets out a few more times than I do, but it's certainly true that proportionally I don't own a lot of opera recordings. In general, I find the home listening experience to be a long way from the real thing. It's also difficult to describe, exactly what I mean, but anyone with the opera bug will know where I'm coming from. I had hoped that DVD would be the answer, but that comes across as rather sterile as well.

David

Favorite operas?
None.

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None.

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I suspect it's a prime example of German humor.

Very funny, RCH, and sorry for us discussing a classical music thing here!

I'm not a real opera fan (out ofthe theatre)* but I'll mention my favorite operas:

Mozart: Don G
Wagner: Parsifal
Tchaikovksy: Pique Dame
Ravel: L'enfant & les Sortilèges

*in many cases (as Prokofiev, Stravinsky, even Ravel) I prefer the ballet music.

Herman

Eugene Onegin.

FWIW, I suspect many of us enjpy reading these classical threads but are too intimidated by our lack of knowledge to participate. Please keep it up, gentlemen.

Davie

sorry, Todd

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
Old Tchaikowsky writes quite independent lines for the bass from time, and if you are the only bass you suddenly can become a soloist.

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Same fear and love among tuba players, I suspect. I doubt there's any composer who wrote such intricate stuff for this supporting instrument before Tchaikovsky, and at moments of great intensity, too: the Rose Adagio in Sleeping Beauty and the final scene in Swan Lake when the lovers are swallowed up by the water, and the tuba sounds the last deep down waves.

Herman

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Originally posted by herm:
[S]orry, Todd...[blah, blah, etc] Tchaikovsky, [blah, blah, etc]
Herman

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Damn you, Herman! Why must you bring up Petie? You know I don't like him. Well, actually, I must admit that I did enjoy Eugene Onegin quite a bit, but I just felt that something was missing. Of course, I heard the Levine reading, so it may not be the composer's fault. One day I may very well buy the Gergiev or another, better set. Tchaikovsky’s tendency to write melodramatic music seems to fit opera well.

I’m with Omer on Peter Grimes, too: the “homosexual” aspects of the opera seem to me more related to Britten the private man than to the opera. I can say the same about Billy Budd. It can be difficult to separate the composer from the work. Hell, look at Wagner and all of the different interpretations and other baggage people hang on The Ring. I admit that I was averse to both Wagner and Strauss largely because of their personalities. Fortunately, I’ve moved past that.

And to answer someone’s earlier question about Fidelio: I did leave it off on purpose. It’s really not that great. (And believe me, it pains me to write that about Beethoven.)



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Hey, don’t get me wrong, I love Beethoven (as the 200+ CDs of his music in collection attest), but he was not a great composer for the voice.* Some people have it, some don’t: Mozart and Schubert had it, Beethoven and Haydn didn’t. Yes, there are some magnificent choral parts in Fidelio, and there are indeed passages of music that equal anything else Beethoven wrote, but as a whole the work just does not convince me. It lacks the dramatic impact of Mozart or Wagner or Berg. There are a number of times where it seems to be one scene, then a musical interlude, then another scene, without any compelling drama connecting them all in a convincing whole. Mussorgsky did the same thing, of course, but in his works it seems entirely appropriate. I can’t really be more precise than that, but it seems that the theater was Beethoven’s weak spot. But then maybe the new Rattle recording will help change my opinion.

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
What choral music is there to reach into the listener's soul like the Prisoners Chorus?

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Bach's B minor mass and St Matthew Passion, Janacek's Glagolitic Mass, Szymanowski's Stabat Mater and Third Symphony, and a number of others.



* Here I mean the solo voice . Choral writing seems to be another beast altogether.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

fat chance

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Originally posted by Todd Arola:
It seems that the theater was Beethoven’s weak spot. But then maybe the new Rattle recording will help change my opinion.

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Yeah, fat chance Rattle will do so.

Isn't the thing with Beethoven his affect is usually towards the generalisation - the human race rather than the individual, whereas with Mozart - the perfect dramatist - it works the other way around? Same with Haydn. This is why I would say Mozart is more of a Romantic than Beethoven (and Haydn, obviously).

More blah blah about Pjotr later.

Herman

Andrea Bocelli brings tears to my eyes.

duncan

Email: djcritchley at hotmail.com

[/QUOTE]
From the land of music that is, indeed, a sad thing. Everyone strggles with art in various genres, and sometimes we fail - I still cannot see what PUNK was all about, and most chart music seems pretty empty to me - but if you have no favourites, are you trying to find some? You could do worse than Mozart's Magic Flute, which is full of great music, even if the words take some understanding! Fortunately it stands up even if you don't know what is going on 'as a story.'
Fredrik Fiske[/QUOTE]

Hi Fredrik,

trying to convert me to opera is ok. But hold on: I didn't write a word about preferring punk or chart music. I also didn't say that operas are not great music. I just wrote that I don't have a favorite one. But I can affirm now, that operas are not the genre of music I like.

Christian

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Originally posted by herm:
I suspect it's a prime example of German humor.
Very funny, RCH, and sorry for us discussing a classical music thing here!Herman

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herm,

ha ha ha and blah blah...

I'm behind the 8-ball again

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Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is worth listening to, and can be quite funny in places.

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DJH,
I have to say (and I speak as a big, if recent, Ligeti fan), that I've found this one tough going and have finally given up. It's very wordy, lightly orchestrated, and chatty (and yes, I have Ligeti's revised, heavily edited version, with Salonen and the London Philharmonia). After about six full listens over a couple of months, it just never offered up anything to grab hold of.

So am I alone in this? It's puzzling, because there's nothing else by Ligeti I've heard that I haven't liked.*

Todd,
I have been enjoying both Rautavaara's Aleksis Kivi and Szymanowski's King Roger, both of which I bought recently on your recommendation.

I've never really gotten into Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. I like S. a lot, but have always chalked my not liking this opera up to the fact that I have trouble with all of S.'s early '30's stuff (esp. #4) up until his (Stalin-assisted) "turn" with Symphony #5.

My favorite non-opera opera is S.'s Symphony 14 (German language version only, please). Really terrific and a hint of what he could have done if he'd written another.

I admit to being something of a closet Der Ring fan. Embarassingly I have no single recording of all four, but different performers of different eras on different media. (Karl Bohm's old Phillips Das Rheingold on LP, Wolfgang Sawallisch's Siegfried on CD, Levine's Walkure on CD, Solti's Gotterdammerung on LP.)

Sad I know, but it's never really bothered me. Still, I'm thinking of buying a single, "definitive" set of the whole thing. Suggestions?

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I've been looking for a copy of Schnittke's Life with an Idiot so far without success - is there a current version available?

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In my naive little world I always assumed I could just pick this up "some day".
Guess not.

Eric

*I will point out in my support that Ligeti himself starts off describing the work by saying "When I composed this "opera" between 1975 and 1977, I was rather naive...."

[This message was edited by ejl on THURSDAY 25 September 2003 at 02:48.]