Lockerbie bomber released
Posted by: Bruce Woodhouse on 21 August 2009
Something tells me I know how the forum will split on this issue but I have been kicking it around for some time.
Ultimately I feel that by releasing Megrahi (sp?) for the last months of his life the authorities have shown compassion and humanity. This is in dramatic counterpoint to that shown by him and his consorts and as such has even greater power. The message is simple, we are not mean and bitter, we still abhorr the crime, we mourn the victims but we have retained the ability to show compassion to even a mass-murderer. I think that is a noble message.
No custodial sentence can ever be 'proportionate' to such a crime, attempting to measure wether he has been punished 'enough' is facile.
His release is not a pardon, just a gesture that might resonate with those who would commit acts of violence against us (accepting the US was the real target of the act). In the USA he would probably have been given the death penalty, if not his early release now would clearly not have been contemplated.
I think the Scottish decision is the braver, and perhaps one that makes further terrorist attacks a fraction less likely rather than more. That has to be good.
A good friend of mine died at Lockerbie.
Bruce
Ultimately I feel that by releasing Megrahi (sp?) for the last months of his life the authorities have shown compassion and humanity. This is in dramatic counterpoint to that shown by him and his consorts and as such has even greater power. The message is simple, we are not mean and bitter, we still abhorr the crime, we mourn the victims but we have retained the ability to show compassion to even a mass-murderer. I think that is a noble message.
No custodial sentence can ever be 'proportionate' to such a crime, attempting to measure wether he has been punished 'enough' is facile.
His release is not a pardon, just a gesture that might resonate with those who would commit acts of violence against us (accepting the US was the real target of the act). In the USA he would probably have been given the death penalty, if not his early release now would clearly not have been contemplated.
I think the Scottish decision is the braver, and perhaps one that makes further terrorist attacks a fraction less likely rather than more. That has to be good.
A good friend of mine died at Lockerbie.
Bruce
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by scottyhammer
leave ALL terrorists to rot in hell - NO exceptions.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Bruce Woodhouse
quote:Originally posted by scottyhammer:
leave ALL terrorists to rot in hell - NO exceptions.
If you are a christian then the decision of where he spends eternity will be made by a higher power, and you may get your 'wish'.
I guess you mean that all terrorists should 'rot' in prison?
Bruce
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by scottyhammer
i dont care clever dick i just "hope" they rot in hell !
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Steve G
A quick canvas of opinion in my office (in Scotland) is about 25% in favour of him being released and the rest against it. Interestingly the people (almost exclusively female as it happens) who thought he should be released almost almost mentioned that they thought he was innocent.
Most of the men in the office thought that releasing him, then shooting down Gaddaffi's private jet somewhere over the med, might have been a good idea.
Personally I think that when someone has been convicted of the murder of 270 people (and has lost one appeal and chosen to drop another) should die in prison.
Even for those people who think he's innocent then this must be the worst case scenario as a 2nd appeal might have got them closer to what they were looking for.
Most of the men in the office thought that releasing him, then shooting down Gaddaffi's private jet somewhere over the med, might have been a good idea.
Personally I think that when someone has been convicted of the murder of 270 people (and has lost one appeal and chosen to drop another) should die in prison.
Even for those people who think he's innocent then this must be the worst case scenario as a 2nd appeal might have got them closer to what they were looking for.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Christopher_M
Bruce,
I like the thoughtful and compassionate nature of your post. I would rather live in a compassionate society than a vengeful one.
Best, Chris
I like the thoughtful and compassionate nature of your post. I would rather live in a compassionate society than a vengeful one.
Best, Chris
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
No reprieve for the dead.
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Derek Wright
War is war - no doubt there are parts of Europe that do not worship the ground that Bomber Harris walked on - yet we have a statue to him in London.
Remember
I am a freedom fighter
He is a guerrilla fighter
They are terrorists.
Remember
I am a freedom fighter
He is a guerrilla fighter
They are terrorists.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Don Phillips
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by rodwsmith
I thought Krishnan Guru-Murthy's probing of Kenny MacAskill on Channel 4 news last night was very high class Humphrys-esque (but with compassion!) journalism.
"If al-Megrahi is to be released on compassionate grounds, then who else should not be considered for such treatment? What crime needs someone to have done for this not to be appropriate for them also?" (paraphrase)
We can all of us only base things on second-hand information, of course, but if the Panorama programme about Lockerbie, and the long-running series of pieces in Private Eye is in any way credible then his conviction was categorically unsafe in British / Scottish law. If they are to be believed wholesale then there is no doubt whatsoever of his innocence.
I suspect this is behind the decision to release him.
Posthumous miscarriages of justice are the hardest of all to atone for, and undeniably bad PR all round. Maybe I'm being cynical, but it appears to me that somehow they think having released him will ameliorate that eventuality should it happen.
"If al-Megrahi is to be released on compassionate grounds, then who else should not be considered for such treatment? What crime needs someone to have done for this not to be appropriate for them also?" (paraphrase)
We can all of us only base things on second-hand information, of course, but if the Panorama programme about Lockerbie, and the long-running series of pieces in Private Eye is in any way credible then his conviction was categorically unsafe in British / Scottish law. If they are to be believed wholesale then there is no doubt whatsoever of his innocence.
I suspect this is behind the decision to release him.
Posthumous miscarriages of justice are the hardest of all to atone for, and undeniably bad PR all round. Maybe I'm being cynical, but it appears to me that somehow they think having released him will ameliorate that eventuality should it happen.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by DAVOhorn
What is truely obscene is the manner in which this REVOLTING MAN is being feted as a Hero and Frredom fighter for the murder of many innocent people.
It is truely an abhorrent reflection upon the society from which he comes and i am afraid also a reflection of Modern Islam.
Ronnie Biggs had to fight for his release on compassionate grounds, while he was a violent thug he did not murder anyone in the robbery of which he was an accomplice.
This individual should have completed his sentence of life imprisonment.
But i fear that if he had died in prison he would become a martyr to the islamic terrorists and this would result in further atrocities from this group of terrorists.
A revolting person who has been dealt with great compassion by his enemies.
regards David
It is truely an abhorrent reflection upon the society from which he comes and i am afraid also a reflection of Modern Islam.
Ronnie Biggs had to fight for his release on compassionate grounds, while he was a violent thug he did not murder anyone in the robbery of which he was an accomplice.
This individual should have completed his sentence of life imprisonment.
But i fear that if he had died in prison he would become a martyr to the islamic terrorists and this would result in further atrocities from this group of terrorists.
A revolting person who has been dealt with great compassion by his enemies.
regards David
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by scottyhammer
chris,
would you think like this if one of your family was killed in this tragedy ?
would you think like this if one of your family was killed in this tragedy ?
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Christopher_M
Scotty,
Yes, I honestly think I would. Irrespective of the kind of the society that the bomber comes from, my view is that our desire for vengeance demeans ours. As Bruce says, he hasn't been pardoned, we have shown compassion.
Best, Chris
Yes, I honestly think I would. Irrespective of the kind of the society that the bomber comes from, my view is that our desire for vengeance demeans ours. As Bruce says, he hasn't been pardoned, we have shown compassion.
Best, Chris
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Bruce Woodhouse
I really do not know about the guilt issue, and in my own assessment have not really considered this a factor.
I think his release is a strong decision, not a weak one. We have effectively said to this man; you may have done a hateful thing, something I do not forgive (or ever forget) BUT I have retained my dignity and my humanity. I actually think that can show that his actions are even more obscene.
Bruce
I think his release is a strong decision, not a weak one. We have effectively said to this man; you may have done a hateful thing, something I do not forgive (or ever forget) BUT I have retained my dignity and my humanity. I actually think that can show that his actions are even more obscene.
Bruce
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Absolute
Going back to rodwsith's comment, was it Myra Hindley that served her time and then told she wouldn't be released? Granted, she wasn't ill, but in the end she died in prison (as far as i am aware).
As for the Lockerbie bomber, it is always going to divide opinion and i think to try and find a middle ground is pretty much impossible. From my own personal point of view, i think it does show a great deal of strength, humanity and compassion and as already stated, highlights that those who had to make the decision have great moral fiber.
It is also interesting to see the division in opinion over whether he actually did it. I don't know a great deal about the case, but there does seem to be a great deal of ambiguity over the eventual rest and trial.
As for the Lockerbie bomber, it is always going to divide opinion and i think to try and find a middle ground is pretty much impossible. From my own personal point of view, i think it does show a great deal of strength, humanity and compassion and as already stated, highlights that those who had to make the decision have great moral fiber.
It is also interesting to see the division in opinion over whether he actually did it. I don't know a great deal about the case, but there does seem to be a great deal of ambiguity over the eventual rest and trial.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Henners
There are several strands to this which can be considered:
Were we hoodwinked by a total miscarriage of justice?
We have all shown compassion towards the IRA and the other "terrorist" organisations in Ireland in the ame of peace there.
Nelson Mandella has shown compassion in the face of equally appaling treatment.
What do you expect the US to say when still have the death sentence and an apparent total disregard for national severeignty and "thou shall not kill" is reseverved for other nations.
The families received and enormous payout for the deaths of their loved ones as recompense - to want the death of someone in jail is capital punishment.
Finlly if the guy did it he has a little time to get his house in order and prepare himself for whatever his god will do to him. If he didnt do it then he has to face the remainder of his life in pain.
Yours
Were we hoodwinked by a total miscarriage of justice?
We have all shown compassion towards the IRA and the other "terrorist" organisations in Ireland in the ame of peace there.
Nelson Mandella has shown compassion in the face of equally appaling treatment.
What do you expect the US to say when still have the death sentence and an apparent total disregard for national severeignty and "thou shall not kill" is reseverved for other nations.
The families received and enormous payout for the deaths of their loved ones as recompense - to want the death of someone in jail is capital punishment.
Finlly if the guy did it he has a little time to get his house in order and prepare himself for whatever his god will do to him. If he didnt do it then he has to face the remainder of his life in pain.
Yours
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by OscillateWildly
The problem for me is the evidence that led the Review Commission to refer the case back to Appeal will not be heard. This leaves questions over the safety of the conviction.
Is the outcome a fudge - the prisoner unlikely to see the end of an appeal, evidence that may embarrass UK and US Governments, he backs down in return for release on compassionate grounds?
Cheers,
OW
Is the outcome a fudge - the prisoner unlikely to see the end of an appeal, evidence that may embarrass UK and US Governments, he backs down in return for release on compassionate grounds?
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by u5227470736789439
I agree with the opening post.
In essence to be generous and merciful is a noble act stands every chance of tending to reduce the terrorist threat rather than increase it as a beneficial side effect.
The politics of the issue seem to me a side issue in comparison. And the politicians who try to make headway with it are playing a with a contemptible notion in my view.
ATB from George
In essence to be generous and merciful is a noble act stands every chance of tending to reduce the terrorist threat rather than increase it as a beneficial side effect.
The politics of the issue seem to me a side issue in comparison. And the politicians who try to make headway with it are playing a with a contemptible notion in my view.
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Ian G.
I believe in compassion, but in this case one needs to also consider compassion towards the victims' families, many of whom will be devastated by what they see as a betrayal. In my mind looking after their best interests should come first before showing compassion to the bomber.
I think we failed the relatives of the dead yesterday by releasing him and perhaps for the first time in my life I'm a bit ashamed of my country this morning.
Ian
I think we failed the relatives of the dead yesterday by releasing him and perhaps for the first time in my life I'm a bit ashamed of my country this morning.
Ian
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by nap-ster
What about keeping him in hospital and playing him Michael Jacksons "Thriller" on repeat?
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by OscillateWildly
What if he is innocent?
Cheers,
OW
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Consciousmess
Collateral damage.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Richwleeds
FWIW
I think it was a brave and compassionate decision
But spoiled by not secreting him quietly home & giving the Lybians the opportunity to celebrate
I sense the Scottish government didn't tie down agreements with Lybia on not making a public spectacle of this
I think it was a brave and compassionate decision
But spoiled by not secreting him quietly home & giving the Lybians the opportunity to celebrate
I sense the Scottish government didn't tie down agreements with Lybia on not making a public spectacle of this
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Don Phillips
It seems that the ownership of the world's best hifi knows no frontiers.
I am struck by such an extreme range of views that can be held by guys who presumably have well developed artistic sensibilities.
Personally I am in the same corner as George and Bruce. And I like to hope I would be able to be compassionate even if one of my own had been killed.
Don, sunny downtown York.
I am struck by such an extreme range of views that can be held by guys who presumably have well developed artistic sensibilities.
Personally I am in the same corner as George and Bruce. And I like to hope I would be able to be compassionate even if one of my own had been killed.
Don, sunny downtown York.
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by Roy T
Returned home by due process of law, seems about right to me.
Outrage from some of those who seemed to have accepted financial settlements - pot, kettle black?
Outrage from some of those who seemed to have accepted financial settlements - pot, kettle black?
Posted on: 21 August 2009 by droodzilla
We've had hundreds of years of tit for tat violence and hatred, and look where it's got us. I applaud Bruce's original post.