The CDS2

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In the interests of source first, does naybody have good experienceof middle ground between a CDS!! and CD12. My last demo (a year ago) had me falling over the Linn, smarting at the price and wondering what was lacking in the CDS!!

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I actually prefer the CDS2 over the CD12. The CD12 sounds a touch more refined, but it's also a bit too polite (as is most of Linn's gear to my ears). In comparison, the CDS2 presents the life breath of the music, with a wonderful sense of the natural bounce and motion of the music. I'm particulary sensitive to "groove", and I think the CDS2 does it better.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

In contrast, when I've tried a similar test with lesser amplification (my Sony AV Receiver), the differences were not nearly as evident. Yes, the CDS2 was better than the CD6, but both sounded much closer to the same.

That's why we must always consider system balance in addition to source first. If there's a weak link, it's going to limit the performance, regardless of how good the rest of the gear is.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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That's why we must always consider system balance in addition to source first. If there's a weak link, it's going to limit the performance, regardless of how good the rest of the gear is.

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And that's why Julian gave us the Nait

I almost hesitate to admit this, since I'm a rabid source-firster, but I was somewhat less than impressed by the superiority of the LP12 I had just bought over the Systemdek IIx it had replaced until I got an original Nait 1. Then it all made sense.

Joe

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And that's why Julian gave us the Nait

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In my comments regarding source first versus system balance, I try to maintain that each component must be "close enough" to the rest, so that they are not considered weak links. In this case, the Nait is a pretty good little amp, and makes sense in the context of a modest system. However, I happen to feel that it would waste much of what a CDS2 has to offer, and a better system than CDS2/Nait for similar outlay would probably be CDX/XPS/102/NAPSC/140.

It also depends on what you desire from your system. Although superior PRaT is an admirable goal, it's not the end all and be all; I also want slam, volume, deep bass, detail, accuracy, etc. I'm not going to get most of these from a CDS2/Nait, whereas I would get much more from the aforementioned alternative.

As usual, it comes down to expectations, desire, perception, etc.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Although superior PRaT is an admirable goal, it's not the end all and be all

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No, you need good pitch too.

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As usual, it comes down to expectations, desire, perception, etc.

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Abso-bleedin-lutely. Give me the CDS2 / Nait NOW!

Tony.

This source first thing is becoming ludicrous.

Give me the CDS2/Nait NOW..........Tony

For crying out loud, you should be saying

Give me the CDS2/52 NOW........it will sound better you know.

The Nait will choke the CDS2, you need a balanced system to exploit the full potential of the source. This is why little items such as NAP500's and DBL's are made.

Regards

Mick

Yes it will, BUT it will also reveal all the things that lesser sources do right. I have a LP12/Ittok/Lyra Clavis/Prefix/Hicap, plus CDi /52/135 N804. In the words of some others - a mullet.

But the CDi is a great player which with 52 etc.. gives gobsmacking performance. The ear (mine anyway) latches onto the good stuff and listens around the negatives which aren't that major IMHO.

I've have had a CDS2 at home and whilst it is clearly better it ain't £5K better. It is interesting to note that the improvements are almost exclusively "round earth" ... more detail, better separation, soundstaging, instrument timbre, longer reverberatiion trails etc.
I won't spend that kind of money when a new format (which for specialist music production - 2 or multi-channel - will be SACD, not DVD-A) is on the way.

My next £10K will go on stands, a lesser 500, or N802's or some combination thereof.

Colin Lorenson

The ideal partner for a CDS2 is a 52, I am not foolish enough to think otherwise. If you want both these products ultimately I think you would be mad to buy the 52 first. Of course the CDX/52 sounds great but IMO relative to CDX/XPS/82/Supercap it sounds forced, aggressive, uncouth and ultimately fatiguing (unless perhaps its a la Vuk). Also I apolgise for my tabloid vocabulary but could think of no other.

A Supercapped 32.5 does not allow a CDS2 to show all its merits, of course not, but it shows enough of them, and all the ones that are important to me. And it has bags of Mike's "groove" as a combination. In my system I prefer it to the 82 but I don't necessarily blame the preamp - could be my predisposition towards analogue sound, could be my room, the speakers you all hate; I don't think its the set up and my equipment is newish or newly seen to.

My "downsizing" frees funds to spruce up the vinyl but this is coincidental rather than my reason for doing it.

As far as I'm concerned my system will be balanced and I'll buy a 52 one day anyway. And isn't it lucky we don't all think the same thing and have the same money to spend - with regard to budget, I think Naim should give ten of us ten grand to spend as we see fit on a hi-fi system and then we can all compare the results.

CDS2/52/500 -> most any speakers on the planet

vs.

CDS2/52/135s -> most any speakers on the planet

vs.

CDS2/52/140 -> speakers that are drivable by a 140

vs.

CDS2/32.5/140 -> speakers that are drivable by a 140

Are the higher amps 'more revealing' of the source or is one just purchasing more power to drive speakers in a larger room? Is the pre-amp all there is to it?

People usually mention the 52 partnered with the higher amps so I was just curious about the lower amps.

- GregB
Who still has some Naim interconnects lying abou

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Alex S recently said that he preferred 32.5/Super over 82/Hi, but I strongly disagree. I've done the direct comparison between 32.5/Super and an 82 driven by a mere SNAPS, and the 82-based combo was the clear winner by an obvious margin.

I list speakers before power amp, because they do far more to affect the character of the sound. They also have to be carefully interfaced with the room. The sound of Naim power amps is much more consistent (a la vanilla ice cream). Sure they vary, but it's not nearly as obvious as the differences from one source, pre-amp, or power supply to the next.

I've occasionally compared my 110 and my 250. The 250 seems more confident and snappy, but the sonic difference is not huge. It's only when the volume is turned up that the 250 really starts to shine. However, my Albions are a fairly easy load, and the 250's capabilities would probably have shown themselves sooner with a less sensitive speaker.

My 135s are waiting to be setup at home, so I'm curious to see how they'll fair compared to the 250. I've not had a chance recently to do a direct comparison. If you're wondering why I'm upgrading, here's my reasoning:

• I've already maxed out my CD source and pre-amp (the vinyl might come later), and I'm quite happy with the speakers, so the power amp is the next step. (BTW, I don't intend to upgrade to an NAP500 anytime soon, if ever.)
  
• I really like the sound of the Albions, and I plan to stick with them indefinitely. I'll likely continue a relaxed search for the ultimate speaker, but I'm not in any pain in the mean time. Having 135s will afford me more flexibility in my search.
  
• Albions were designed with the 135 as the primary test amp. Therefore, I'll get to hear my speakers "as intended".
  
• I would occasionally like more volume.
  
• The price was right.
  

In the end, get the best source, pre-amp and power-supply that you can afford. Find some speakers whose sound pleases you, and work well in your room. If you have the choice between a fair pre-amp and great power amp, versus a great pre-amp and a fair power-amp, go for the better pre-amp. Just make sure that your amp is powerful enough to drive the speakers that you choose at the volumes that you desire.

For example, during my house move last spring I hacked together various parts of my systems to provide some tunes while I did stuff around the house. I ended up with CDX/82/SNAPS/110/RoydMerlins. I was astonished at how good this sounded, and I felt that it provided a very well balanced performance. (Using a 102/NAPSC would have been more "balanced", but I didn't have one handy. )

Ultimately, any Naim system that you can hack together is probably going to sound "ok". What we're striving for is the best sounding system for the money. In my books, that requires a strong focus on source and pre-amp, speakers that suit your taste and room, and any power amp that will drive your speakers to an acceptable volume.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on TUESDAY 28 August 2001 at 22:14.]

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How many times of the last few months have I read ... "A 52 etc.. will reveal all the shortcomings of anything less than a CDS2 etc..." or words to that effect.
Yes it will, BUT it will also reveal all the things that lesser sources do right. I have a LP12/Ittok/Lyra Clavis/Prefix/Hicap, plus CDi /52/135 N804. In the words of some others - a mullet.

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I'm glad so many people are talking sense in this thread.

With 32.5/90/Kans I was disinclined to listen to pre-recorded cassettes on my bottom of the range Denon cassette deck.

Now that a 102 has replaced the 32.5 I can listen to previously unlistenable to pre-recorded cassettes, and actually enjoy them.

As I keep saying, source priority is a good rule of thumb but, in my opinion, it is nothing more. In case anyone noticed my recent "threat" to explain this (in another thread) - I'm just too tired and busy at the moment to do it. In the light of recent experience in another thread, I want to write out everything from first principles in the hope that anyone who disagrees will be able to criticise what I actually say and mean rather than some dimwit nonsense that they've chosen to imagine. This will take some time. Don't expect it soon but I really do want to write it.

--Jeremy

Please do not think I am loosing my marbles over Hifi, I am not.

My expenditure is well under control. This year I have only purchased a CDS2, a Supercap and an XPS. Each upgrade has brought about a very good improvement in sound and I could have easily have lived with my system at each stage of the upgrade trail. The reason for each up grade is that although I am content with the present level, I know that there is somethime better available, so I get it and have never regretted it.

Finance is not a problem for me, I am middle aged and have all, but cleared my mortgage, so its only pocket money. You will be in the same position at my age.

I have managed to build up a good portfolio for my forthcoming retirement and no longer need to save money, so I spend it as soon as I get it on the things that please me and the wife. Hifi pleases me, so I buy it. I am soon to embark on a cruise in the Caribbean, so my wife does not suffer because of Hifi.

Please rest assured Mr Blzebub, I am neither dissatisfied nor suffering and thank you for your concern.

Regards

Mick

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Alex S recently said that he preferred 32.5/Super over 82/Hi, but I strongly disagree.

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This might be because you have different priorities I was after "groove" and PR&T above all other virtues. In strict hi-fi terms I do not claim a 32.5's superiority. The 82 is more detailed, transparent (and harsh). But it doesn't play a tune any better.

I invite potential purchasers to audition both combinations since each is an equally valid upgrade path towards 52/Super.

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The point being that a huge amount of money has been spent by messrs Hanson and Parry without either of them stopping on their crazy upgrade trail.

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I suspect the reason you're annoyed is that our upgrades have been public. If we had done all of it without sharing our experience, then suddenly appeared and said "I have a CDS2/52/Super/2*135/Albion", you would probably respond with "Nice system!"

Whats worse: buying a top-flight system outright, or upgrading over time while corresponding with others regarding the best path?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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My expenditure is well under control. This year I have only purchased a CDS2, a Supercap and an XPS.

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CDS2/52/500 -> most any speakers on the planet
vs.
CDS2/52/135s -> most any speakers on the planet

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Greg,

The proposition of simply finding the lowest powered amp capable of 'adequately driving' a given pair of speakers in a given room is 'as-good-as-it-gets' simply isn't true. (If that was your query). Provided the sources are up to it, improvements in the power amp will continue to yield improvemts in the overall system. The point is where to stop improving the amp and take a look at the speakers.

Because I made the decison some years ago to install the HiFi in a separate, dedicated room I've lumbered myself with a small room that suffers bass problems terribly. Better to be able to play music whenever I want, as loud as i want than to have the perfect room but only available when its convenient with the rest of the family. To date, the best speakers I've found that work in that room are Kans.

For me, in my situation, I strongly contend that I would prefer CDS2/52/500/Kans to CDS2/52/135's/anything else

Now that I've only recently started using Kans I need to go back and re-evalute the difference a 500 makes in this system compared to 135's say. It just so happens that I'm soon going to be lending out my 500 to a six-packer for the weekend. While the 500 is away I'll have a couple of 135's to keep me going. I'll report my findings.

Allan

Mike - I didn't respond to your detailed post right away 'cause I figured there might be a 2nd response (there was) and Bugger!!! This thread is on to five pages already!!!

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

I think you misunderstand my position.

I enjoy the 82 but I know that the 52 is better so I will probably buy one before much longer.

If however, for any reason, I was unable to buy the 52, I would still be happy with my system and could live with it forever.

I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a 52 and as such will more than likely buy one.

I have a second system in the dining room which is based on CD3.5+Hicap/32.5+Hicap/140/Linn Saras and I enjoy it immensely and have no intention of upgrading despite the fact that some people reckon the Saras need a 250 to drive them.

The main system is for serious listening and I spend a lot of time using it so its good value for money.

Also, as you go through life, your priorities change. I have always driven Jaguars which are expensive to run and I enjoyed them and have never regretted the thousands I have spent on fuel. Today I do not even own a car, I walk to the office in an attempt to keep fit, so I am saving a packet there and spending it on the Hifi instead. Lolley is there to be spent in order to bring about enjoyment and right now I am getting plenty of joy out of listening to music and I do not begrudge a single penny. So yes I may continue to upgrade and I cannot see what the problem is.

Regards

Mick

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it's just that the next upgrade seems to be planned before the last upgrade has had a chance to bed in, and top-notch amps such as the (£2435) 82 and the (£1855) 250 seem to be getting a bit of a bashing, which I don't feel they really deserve. There seems to be an element of restless dissatisfaction about it all.

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I decided at least a year ago that I wanted to end up with CDS2/52/135, even though I was happy with my system at the time. I had heard the top-flight configuration a few times, and I really liked what it did. Therefore, waiting to get used to each upgrade before the next wasn't really necessary.

I had CDX/82/Super/250 back at the end of May. The first upgrade was going to be an XPS, which was sensible. I actually paid for and ordered it from my Naim dealer.

While waiting for it to arrive, I learned of a cheap demo CDS2/XPS from the ex-Naim dealer. They wouldn't sell it separately, so I went ahead and bought both. Then I returned to my dealer and changed my order from an XPS to a 52. It wasn't as costly as one might think, since I would be selling both the CDX and 82, and the CDS2/XPS was about 2/3 of regular price.

Recently a set of used 135s became available here in Canada. Since this is rather rare and the price was good, I decided to jump at the opportunity. Again, I'm able to sell my 250 to soften the cost.

I will admit that it's caused a minor cash flow problem, but that's what credit is for, isn't it? Now I'm "done", so I can just focus on paying the bills. In the mean time, I'm enjoying the music more than ever.

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I bet you both order 500s (within the next 12 months).

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I suspect that neither of us will.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

If/When you get to the point of considering what to do with your power amp my vote would be markedly in favour of the active 250 route with your SBL's.

From listening tests I found the transparency/air around the instruments really opens up when active & IMO much better than SBL's driven by passive 135's.

Jeff

At the same time last year I had : Rega Planet / 32.5 – Snaps / Linn Lk 280 / Meadowlark Kestrel. During this year I had a 102, a 140, a 180, a hicap , a cd 3.5, with a snaps, with a flatcap, with a hicap, a CDX (even a pair of 135 pay me a visit but the’re gone to another well know forum member ). And I forgot some other. I’m now with a CDS 1 / 82 – Hicap / 250 / Headline – Flacap / Credo . This is the kind of kit I was planning to have in 4 or 5 years. But I was lucky enough to make some incredible deal. I pay everything for at least half the price and made some small profit in the resell / exchange.

And this is not to say, I missed a deal on 52 and another pair 135. I was not fast enough . Next time…

So some of the forum contributor are lucky to work in great job that give a good income, other are older than I so they don’t have a one year old baby at home. They can afford those kind of toys without compromising their budget. Some other like me, are middle income earner and have wait more time between upgrade or have to hunt for deal.

PS : I’m waiting for Mike to buy his 500 so I can have his 135 back!

Bernard Paquet

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If/When you get to the point of considering what to do with your power amp my vote would be markedly in favour of the active 250 route with your SBL's.

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If my speakers were capable of active configuration, I would probably be considering the same thing.

Most people say that a single NAP500 is better than an active 4/6-pack of 135s. However, you can climb the active ladder slowly with cheap used gear, while a new NAP500 is a hard pill to swallow all in one gulp.

Here's what I would do, if I had Mick's SBLs (other than selling them to buy a pair of Albions ):

1. I would start with adding another 250, which I would passively bi-amp, or configure as two "125s".
   
2. Then I would add the SNAXO and Hi-Cap, to make it active.
   
3. The next step would depend on listening tests. I would either Super-Cap the SNAXO, or start replacing the 250s with pairs of 135s.
   

Luckily, my Albions aren't designed for activation, so if I want to upgrade beyond 135s (which isn't currently planned ), I won't have to put much thought into it. Then again, I intend to change the speakers long before I replace the amps. Oh well...

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I will not become too evangelical but I spent a couple of hours last night listening to some Inspector Morse CD's. It has had over 4 weeks to warm up and it shows.

This player opens up the music big time and I seriously suggest that you should all aim to get one. The sounds which oozes from the SBL's is a delight and I would now go so far as to say that you have not really heard a CD play until you have heard it on this machine.

Treat yourself and buy one.

I am a very happy chap.

Regards

Mick

I agree with all you say about the CDS2, but now go and get yourself a 52 before you're 53.

Alex S.

Will have to think about the 52.

Regards

Mick