Customer Service: DV vs Linn (Long)
Posted by: Mark Dunn on 15 June 2002
Hi all:
The front end of my system is Armageddon/LP12/ARO/DV XV-1.
My system had been changing its character slowly for 3 or 4 months when, about a month ago it got to the point where it was obvious something was wrong. The highs were very strident and gritty and everything for the mid-bass down was almost non-existent. The deck was in good tune so my first inclination was towards the cartridge (now a little over 18 months old). I took a look at the cartridge with a 10x magnifier (yeah, I know) but all I could find was that some of the wax that holds the very fine lead out wires in place had dried up a bit. I called Mike Pranka (U.S. Dynavector distributor) and he suggested that we have the unit sent to Japan for a check over. In the mean time he offered to lend me a DV Karat Nova, which is essentially a 17D2 in an ebony wood body. I think this is top drawer service and would like to give Mike a public pat on the back.
I sent off the XV-1 to Mike and the Karat Nova arrived and I installed it. It didn't take long to realize that the original problem was still present. I called Mike to let him know, as I didn't want him to spend money on shipping to Japan unnecessarily but we decided to let it get checked out anyway as DV in Japan had already expressed an interest as to why the wax should dry out.
My next task was to identify the actual problem. In my mind the first port of call was the LP12 bearing. After dismantling the deck and draining the oil form the bearing it was obvious that a rough textured flat spot had developed on the bearing tip and a dimple had been 'drilled' into the thrust plate. Both marks were about 1mm in diameter and obvious to the naked eye. Now, this deck is only 4 1/2 old and as Linn espouse there mechanicals to have a 20 year life span, I called Linn USA and talked with the Service Manager who said I needed to take it to my local dealer (in Dallas) for them to assess it. I made the arrangements, delivered the deck and later that day got a call from the store owner saying that the bearing was perfect and he could see nothing wrong with it! I persisted for a while on the 'phone but the guy was adamant there was no problem. I immediately re-called Linn's Service Manager who was now between a rock and a hard place: I have 17 years experience working with LP12s and am Linn factory trained but the dealer is making Linn money. What's a Service Manager to do? I suggested sending him the inner platter and bearing housing for checkout but was surprised to learn that they have no equipment capable of examining a bearing in the U.S. and would need to send the whole deck to Scotland, at my expense. There would then be an out of warranty service charge if there was a fault. I told him that you only need a 5x magnifying glass to assess the problem fully but he was going to go by the book. Eventually he suggested that the dealer should put my inner platter into his dem' LP12 and see if he could hear a problem. I told the Service Manager that my bearing may well damage the dealer's thrust plate but he said it would be fine, just for a few minutes. If he could have seen my bearing he wouldn't have made that suggestion.
So, I called the dealer (where my deck still resided) and recounted the conversation with Linn. He was unwilling to try my inner platter, not because of possible thrust plate damage but because he was worried he might lose a few drops of oil during the change-over! Can you believe this guy? After some cajoling he agreed to try it and I said I'd be on my way to the store (approx' 30 mins away). By the time I arrived he said they'd already done the swap, listened and everything was perfect with my bearing. How convenient. Keeping my cool and resisting the urge to throw this guy through his own store window I asked what else, in his experience, could cause the problem. He said that although he doesn't sell the ARO, some of his friends that do have told him that, and I quote: "Sometimes the bass goes away". I should've removed him from the gene pool at that point but they fry you for that in Texas (the Alabama excuse of 'He needed killing' doesn't work here).
It was obvious that the shop owner just didn't want to help. When I got home I once again called the Linn Service Manager and gave him only the factual details of the encounter, without any of my suspicions. He suggested that my best option, if the bearing is damaged (now he's admitting the possibility) would be to buy a new Cirkus kit from the dealer and have him fit it. I actually had to laugh and told him that the dealer would never get another penny from me.
I got a Cirkus kit from another source and installed it yesterday and the problem has totally disappeared. In fact, it's sounding better than I can ever remember.
Mike Pranka called me last week to say that the XV-1 will be back by the end of June. Dynavector have cleaned it, replaced the drying wax and tested it against their reference XV-1 and it's perfect. They even sent Mike frequency sweep charts via e-mail.
So to summarize:
1. Add several million points for Mike Pranka for excellent customer service.
2. Subtract a few million points from Linn for having poor back-up in their largest export market for their signature product.
3. Subtract several BILLION points from Linn's Dallas dealer for being a snooty, lying and unhelpful piece of dross.
Rant over.
Caveat emptor in Dallas.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Bob Edwards
Mark--
Sorry to hear about your travails with Linn service. Highly unfortunate, since Linn, while represented in the US by Audiophile Systems, had service that was truly great. Ever since Linn parted company with AS service in the US has been nothing short of a disaster. My local dealer has stories that simply make you shake your head.
A friend had a Karik that developed a laser fault while under warranty from AS. No problem, unit was repaired and returned under warranty. The unit then developed the same problem, this time after the switch away from AS. Linn service tried to claim that the warranty on the laser was only 90 days and refused to repair it under warranty (this despite the fact the explicit warranty on the entire unit stated '5 years parts and labor'). Ultimately, Linn finally did fix it under warranty but said they would not repair the same item under warranty again.
I think your experience illustrates how Linn is more interested in moving boxes then in nurturing their existing (and most loyal) customer base. I for one would have a very difficult time ever buying anything new from Linn. Their service attitude is, IMO, a significant impediment to their expanding sales.
Best,
Bob
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by kan man
Hi Mark
A sorry tale indeed. I really hope this is a one off but I worry that it is a sign of things to come. Turntable sales have been very low for a long time now and consequently, the need for real hands on know how has diminished greatly. I doubt that many people entering hifi retail in the last 10 years have ever set a turntable up, never mind diagnosed problems. This is a great shame because the knowledge that goes with this fosters a problem solving attitude and a recognition that setup makes a crucial difference. If these are ingrained into the culture of the dealer they are much more likely to deliver great customer service because they enjoy the challenge of making sure things work properly. I guess your only hope is to find a good dealer from the old days and make sure that you support them with your wallet.
For any (good) dealers out there that happen to read this, you really should be making sure the old skills don't die by putting your new staff through some sort of appenticeship that covers the setup and diagnosis of both digital and analogue systems.
Does this mean that you are still left with an unknown problem or are you confident that the bearing is at fault i.e. do other sources still sound fine? (apologies if you already know how to suck eggs!)
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 15 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi Bob:
Yes, AS were good and yes, it seems that all Linn is after now is to move boxes. When I look back at all the people I knew at Linn during the 80s I can see that their philosophy has done a 180. There's only one of the old crowd left (as far as I know) and the last time I saw him at the CES in Las Vegas about 3 years ago he was seemd distinctly ground down.
Hi kan man:
It was the bearing at fault. The new Cirkus kit I installed sounds fine.
There is another high end dealer in Dallas who's very analogue oriented and doesn't sell Linn. He mainly does Well Tempered and SME. I heard the SME 20/IV/Lydian recently at one of his customer's homes and I could tell it has potential. It was playing through BAT amplification and Wilson Watt Puppies, so not entirely my cup of tea but the SME was shining through. However, at $10,000 for the table and arm it may be a while before it comes under further consideration!
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 16 June 2002 by ejl
(as they say in Texas)
This is a further reductio ad absurdum of Linn's claim to be a high-end stereo company, in my opinion. I'd expect better service from Technics.
Last year Linn's US service department couldn't even be bothered to return polite emails/phone calls I sent about servicing older speakers. I've wondered how Linn would treat customers with problems with gear they still produce (and recently purchased), and your story Mark provides a partial answer. The fact that you had to upgrade to get your deck fixed is a joke.
Posted on: 16 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi ejl:
Actually, it wasn't even an upgrade as the deck came with the the Cirkus. I was simply replacing parts that failed way too prematurely.
Also, you brought something else to mind as well. About 9 months ago I sent an e-mail to the Linn 'help' line asking the best way to get stubborn belt particles off the inner platter and they told me I needed to buy a new inner platter! Naturally, I just left it alone.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by david skinner
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dunn:
Also, you brought something else to mind as well. About 9 months ago I sent an e-mail to the Linn 'help' line asking the best way to get stubborn belt particles off the inner platter and they told me I needed to buy a new inner platter! Naturally, I just left it alone.
Mark,
This philosophy stems directly from the top and is in line with Linn's move into the more broadly based home entertainment market.
I met Ivor T. at a Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show in Sydney a few years ago and asked him how I could go about going active with my pair of Kan 1s. His suggestion? To buy a new pair of Tukans.
David
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Timbo
this all sounds bad. And here was me thinking of investing in a new LP12 soon. So what are the considered alternatives - I would like an aro and dynavecor or lyra cartridge. But what deck.....
any suggestions?
Tim
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
You mean you haven't considered the alternatives like the P9, Xerxes X, Orbe or Actus?
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Laurie Saunders
I first had a taste of Linn "service" when trying to find some info on Isobariks. That little episode pursuaded me never to buy a Linn product again....I`ve also heard much anectdotal evidence of "stinging" customers for repairs/spares......I relay all this to freinds when they seek my advice.....I wonder if Linn consider the sales benefit of good customer service?....needless to say, there is not a Linn product in my present system.....I think my turntable sounds at least as good (if not better) than an LP12
All I hope is, that Naim do not go down this route
Cheers
Laurie S
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi Timbo:
Admittedly I haven't heard it myself but the latest Xerxes with an ARO and a DV cartridge (17D2 and up) seems to be a favorite in some quarters. I'll certainly be looking at the Xerxes if my LP12 plays up again.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Joe Petrik
Mark,
Sorry to hear about your troubles with Linn. I'd like to think it's an isolated -- though still inexcusable -- example of bad service, but the testimonies here suggest otherwise.
Your experience with Mr. Pranka, on the other hand, is typical. If there ever was a guy who deserved to be stinkin' rich because of the level of service he provides, it would be Mike-bubba Pranka.
A while back I snapped off one of the phono clips on my RB900 while installing a cartridge. Even though it was my fault, Mike-bub offered to resolder the clips. (I'm not very good at soldering and the local Naim guy didn't want to fiddle with a deck he doesn't sell.) Mike even got a hold of some decent ARO phono clips to replace the flimsy copper jobbies Rega uses. Now that's service.
Joe
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by DUPREE
Part of the problem is that the Linn model is that the dealer does everything for you and is the conduit between you and Linn. This may work well in the UK where Linn has much tighter control of it's dealer network, in the U.S., it is a crap shoot as you can work with a wonderful dealer like Innovative in NYC or others, or you may work with some schmuck. I have found Linn's US support to be totally lacking, if you email Scotland you get much better response and better info. I have called Linn in Florida a few times and only once would I call it anything but embarasing. Linn's manuals and technical info that are available to the end user are also nothing short of pathetic. Locally, our dealer folded so people who need service are just SOL. Linn also has a very Myopic aproach, they assume the dealer will setup everything and that even if that is not practical, they will not provide you with the info you need to do it, like settings for aktiv cards etc. You have to find this all out for yourself on the internet.
On the other hand they have some wonderful products and have made some big steps in improving their lineup. The Espek and Katan's are really miles ahead of their previous generation speakers and The Klimax Twin is the best amp I have ever heard, I liked it significantly better than the 500. There multichannel amp the 5125 is also an incredible piece for the money, you can go aktiv with a single box and it is way ahead of the 2 channel LK-140. It is pretty rare and unacceptable that your bearing wore prematurely like that. However, with any kind of machined products defects are bound to happen. It is how they respond that matters. Still the LP-12 is a great deck and I wouldn't trade mine for any other turntable. Check out the new Lingo, they changed the circuit and the powersupply and have really corrected a lot of the problems of the old one. It is also in a full LK box instead of the dodgy half LK box it had before.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dunn:
Hi all:
The front end of my system is Armageddon/LP12/ARO/DV XV-1.
My system had been changing its character slowly for 3 or 4 months when, about a month ago it got to the point where it was obvious something was wrong. The highs were very strident and gritty and everything for the mid-bass down was almost non-existent. The deck was in good tune so my first inclination was towards the cartridge (now a little over 18 months old). I took a look at the cartridge with a 10x magnifier (yeah, I know) but all I could find was that some of the wax that holds the very fine lead out wires in place had dried up a bit. I called Mike Pranka (U.S. Dynavector distributor) and he suggested that we have the unit sent to Japan for a check over. In the mean time he offered to lend me a DV Karat Nova, which is essentially a 17D2 in an ebony wood body. I think this is top drawer service and would like to give Mike a public pat on the back.
I sent off the XV-1 to Mike and the Karat Nova arrived and I installed it. It didn't take long to realize that the original problem was still present. I called Mike to let him know, as I didn't want him to spend money on shipping to Japan unnecessarily but we decided to let it get checked out anyway as DV in Japan had already expressed an interest as to why the wax should dry out.
My next task was to identify the actual problem. In my mind the first port of call was the LP12 bearing. After dismantling the deck and draining the oil form the bearing it was obvious that a rough textured flat spot had developed on the bearing tip and a dimple had been 'drilled' into the thrust plate. Both marks were about 1mm in diameter and obvious to the naked eye. Now, this deck is only 4 1/2 old and as Linn espouse there mechanicals to have a 20 year life span, I called Linn USA and talked with the Service Manager who said I needed to take it to my local dealer (in Dallas) for them to assess it. I made the arrangements, delivered the deck and later that day got a call from the store owner saying that the bearing was perfect and he could see nothing wrong with it! I persisted for a while on the 'phone but the guy was adamant there was no problem. I immediately re-called Linn's Service Manager who was now between a rock and a hard place: I have 17 years experience working with LP12s and am Linn factory trained but the dealer is making Linn money. What's a Service Manager to do? I suggested sending him the inner platter and bearing housing for checkout but was surprised to learn that they have no equipment capable of examining a bearing in the U.S. and would need to send the whole deck to Scotland, at my expense. There would then be an out of warranty service charge if there was a fault. I told him that you only need a 5x magnifying glass to assess the problem fully but he was going to go by the book. Eventually he suggested that the dealer should put my inner platter into his dem' LP12 and see if he could hear a problem. I told the Service Manager that my bearing may well damage the dealer's thrust plate but he said it would be fine, just for a few minutes. If he could have seen my bearing he wouldn't have made that suggestion.
So, I called the dealer (where my deck still resided) and recounted the conversation with Linn. He was unwilling to try my inner platter, not because of possible thrust plate damage but because he was worried he might lose a few drops of oil during the change-over! Can you believe this guy? After some cajoling he agreed to try it and I said I'd be on my way to the store (approx' 30 mins away). By the time I arrived he said they'd already done the swap, listened and everything was perfect with my bearing. How convenient. Keeping my cool and resisting the urge to throw this guy through his own store window I asked what else, in his experience, could cause the problem. He said that although he doesn't sell the ARO, some of his friends that do have told him that, and I quote: "Sometimes the bass goes away". I should've removed him from the gene pool at that point but they fry you for that in Texas (the Alabama excuse of 'He needed killing' doesn't work here).
It was obvious that the shop owner just didn't want to help. When I got home I once again called the Linn Service Manager and gave him only the factual details of the encounter, without any of my suspicions. He suggested that my best option, if the bearing is damaged (now he's admitting the possibility) would be to buy a new Cirkus kit from the dealer and have him fit it. I actually had to laugh and told him that the dealer would never get another penny from me.
I got a Cirkus kit from another source and installed it yesterday and the problem has totally disappeared. In fact, it's sounding better than I can ever remember.
Mike Pranka called me last week to say that the XV-1 will be back by the end of June. Dynavector have cleaned it, replaced the drying wax and tested it against their reference XV-1 and it's perfect. They even sent Mike frequency sweep charts via e-mail.
So to summarize:
1. Add several million points for Mike Pranka for excellent customer service.
2. Subtract a few million points from Linn for having poor back-up in their largest export market for their signature product.
3. Subtract several BILLION points from Linn's Dallas dealer for being a snooty, lying and unhelpful piece of dross.
Rant over.
Caveat emptor in Dallas.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 17 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
I'll certainly be looking at the Xerxes if my LP12 plays up again.
That could be a case of the frying pan and fire. Perhaps someone can tell me if they can obtain a replacement top-plinth for their Xerxes if their arm-board has warped....
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi Andrew:
No, you can't get them. There's only a Heath-Robinson fix that someone came up with. The newer Xerxes apparently don't have this problem.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn]
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
Cool, well let's hope the servicing is better then
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Ed R
Hi all - I was interested to read the posts on the Xerxes (a bit off the original topic so apologies for that).
I've just had my Xerxes serviced by Roksan and my only complaint was the time they took to do it - nearly 4 weeks. Having said that, they did the business on sorting out the sagging plinth and fitting an arm height adjuster for the Rega arm.
I believe they could supply replacement top plinths in certain finishes. I checked with them last year so things may be different now. The washers fitted beneath the bearing housing aren't as "Heath Robinson" as I'd expected. They are fairly substantial brass affairs which raise the platter and permit adjustment of its azimuth as well.
All in all, the service was well worth it as the Xerxes has never sounded better. I've never seen the Aro mentioned as a good fit and I've only ever heard the Xerxes with Roksan's own arms or Regas.
Got to say though, I prefer it to any LP12 I've heard. And on that contentious note, goodbye!
Regards,
Ed.
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by sceptic
One good thing about Xerxeses is that they work well with SME arms.
My one has never sagged BTW.
There is a trade - in scheme for your old Xerxes against a new Xerxes X. Click on "upgrades" on the Roksan website:
http://www.roksan.co.uk/Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Ed R
Sceptic,
How do find the SME sounds on the Xerxes? I always had them down as sounding a bit too sterile for my liking, although again, I've not heard the pairing.
The Xerxes X has apparently cured the problem with sag but I've also heard people describe it as sounding CD-like (which could be a compliment in some people's books!) so maybe that's the price. It's a pretty good upgrade deal though.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by sceptic
I have got the cheapest SME, the 309 (not to be confused with the 3009).
It was an upgrade from the Rega RB300 and was miles better in every respect, making it difficult to pin down any characteristics as such. The "sterile" sound accusation may belong with the turntables the SMEs are often found on. The SME IV would be even better of course.
I chose the Xerxes/RB300 as sounding better to me than an LP12/Ittok. (Long time ago, though).
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Bob Surgeoner
...for the Xerxes!
We at Neat Acoustics have three, two of which are originals (approx 10 years old) and neither of their armboards are 'sagging'.
The Xerxes 10 may be superior in some 'hi fi' aspects, but the original makes music equally involving IMHO.
Bob Surgeoner/Neat Acoustics Ltd.
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by MarkEJ
According to Touraj, the only Xerxes models which are even slightly difficult to to fix are the originals, which were all black, with all black opaque lid. These were all made before1989-ish. Later on, the plinth was manufactured both better and differently, and was available in a range of different finishes. The top plinth sag issue is a drag, but not terminal, and the Xerxes X is in many ways equally likely to suffer from it in the future, but no reported problems so far!
I've a friend with an Series 2 Xerxes (about 1990) which shows no plinth sag at all, in spite of having had a Kuzma Stogi arm from new (really heavy -- the manual states that its bearings will withstand 20kg...) and sounds glorious. It stops on a sixpence -- my impression is that in many ways, it's a happy mix of non-Cirkus LP12 and P9, although I've very limited time with either of these, and possibly not everyone would hear it that way. Damn fine machine, and quite practical -- all the power supply upgrades are still available in board form if you have an XPS case. If you don't, the same boards can be put in a Caspian-style case, which also has room (and a thick shield) for an Artaxerxes phono stage and its HiCap-reminiscent PSU.
Xerxes examples of this vintage were often sold with the "Roksan Turntable Support", which was a piece of black-painted 19mm MDF cut in a shape very like a Mitsubishi logo, with 3 x non-attached spikes (1 at each corner point). This could go between the turntable and whatever it sits on, but also fitted a dedicated floor-mounted support "thing". This had three legs arranged in an equilateral-ish triangle (slim, black tubular metal) with cross braces. Very scary item as the TT would be at roughly knee height from the floor, and as the spread of the legs was less than 2/3rds the width of the TT, deliberately wobble-prone. They have a s/h one of these at Heatherdale Audio at the moment.
Never heard a Xerxes with any other arms myself, but recieved wisdom is that Linn arms generally don't work well, but Regas, Mission Mechanic/Zeta and Aros do, with the Aro being rather better than Roksan's own arms. Not having conventionally interchangable armboards means that you would need a whole new top plate if you change to an arm with a different cut, though.
Lastly, Touraj is helpful and exhibits a genuine pride in his creations. I like that, and I think the Series 2 Xerxes is probably an excellent used buy currently.
Best;
Mark
(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by sceptic
I've got it - surrounded by an S.O. table with the top missing (not in contact). Makes it safer, and more normal looking. Had to cut the S.O. table legs down a bit.
Posted on: 18 June 2002 by Craig B
I'd have to say that even Linn HQ's customer service is sadly lacking IME.
In response to an e-mail that I sent to them kindly requesting a current copy of the Sondek set-up manual, I was told in no uncertain terms that I should only ever consider taking the deck to an authorised dealer for adjustment. I wish I had known that two decades ago as I would never have dared remove the bottom board from my friends 1982 Valhalla let alone had the audacity to fiddle with its dangly bits.
I got the distinct impression that I was being treated as a child that might poke his eye out should he attempt to use the scissors. I was also right pissed to find that no set-up manual was forthcoming.
Not an unusual reply from Linn you might say, however, I had made it quite clear in my original message that I would be proceeding regardless and that I possessed the appropriate tools including a set-up jig and a well used earlier version of said document.
According to my sources, Linn have all of their service manuals available via their dealer only web site in portable document format, so it wasn't as though it was going to cost them so much as a stamp to send it to me.
My local dealer wasn't going to get a dime out of me either way, and I surely wasn't intent upon going into the LP12 tuning business. So what is the problem? It is my deck and I would like to do the job myself and do it right. Surely giving me the document would make me happy and allow me a much better chace of getting it right. If it ends up wrong I am surely not going to blame Linn. Is it their fear that I will do myself in on their Valhalla board? Hey! The Valhalla board! Touch it when it is live and off to Valhalla with you. He he.
Or is it just that Linn's 'thou shalt not dick with thy dek' policy is firmly believed to be the one true path to end user happiness up north of Hadrian's rock fence where black is black and black nuts are simply better.
Well I have ended up feeling black nutted as I merely wanted a current manual in order to compare notes to determine if anything new had been added/changed relative to the old, and father Linn has turned his back on me.
Happily, I have since acquired a copy of the early 90's version of the manual from a kind source and indeed there are some minor differences WRT motor adjustment as a function of speed control that were previously absent or likely unrecognised as being important back when we had no quartz clock syncronised sources to compare with.
I do find it comically ironic that Linn attempt to 'force' one into submitting their cherished deck to one of their authorised dealers, many (if not most) of which have lost (or have never possessed) the ability to properly service them.
It seems that Linn has allowed one of their former flagships biggest selling points (i.e. the strong network of factory trained dealers) to somewhat collapse despite the deck not quite yet being amongst the dearly departed. For me this has tarnished their reputation much more than their sell out to the lifestyle market that they used to piss upon from a great distance. Pity.
Would 'the King is dead, long live the King' be apropos?
Craig
Posted on: 19 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
This isn't a customer service complaint, it's a policy complaint. And it's been a well known Linn policy for at least 25 years, so it shouldn't have been a surprise.
Paul
Posted on: 19 June 2002 by Ed R
Craig/Paul
Linn's policy notwithstanding, surely there must be subversives amongst the readership on this forum who would be prepared to share the lastest version, in a completely off the record fashion of course.
Ed.
