Why is the nDAC so cheap?

Many folk have been using DACs with PCs or Macs in preference to CDPs for quite a while. But they were all misguided and it wasn't until the nDac came along that it became a viable proposition.

Competition is healthy and it's a fast changing market, I reckon it's priced about right. I agree with you that a CDS1 would be no match for what you can do with computer audio.

Joe

The nDAC is an amazing product awesome value for money IMHO. Really is. For me and I'm not ashamed to admit it, its really taken digital to a place where I am seriously not listening to my two record players as much and it is the same leap in sounds at home as when I got a 552.

Well done Naim.

Dev B (previously on the wheels of steel now ripping it up on da hard disks)

Only those who have completely lost touch with the painful reality could use the word cheap when in fact everything in this world is extremely expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
But they were all misguided and it wasn't until the nDac came along that it became a viable proposition.

Yup. A well engineered DAC. Just like you'd expect from Naim.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
But they were all misguided and it wasn't until the nDac came along that it became a viable proposition.

Yup. A well engineered DAC. Just like you'd expect from Naim.

See my thread 'DAC problems'.

quote:

Originally posted by Salmon Dave:
See my thread 'DAC problems'.

I was referring to the techniques employed (i.e. proper reclocking of the data rather than the PLL method traditionally used to lock to the signal), rather than the potential issues you guys are having with your DACs...

Hi,

Reading so many good things about the DAC i keep wondering.

I have a CDS2-555PS, is a CD5XS+DAC+555PS significantly better than CDS2+555PS?

Regards
Rui

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
That's because many evangelised DACs really weren't very good - that has all changed with some great sounding DACs from Naim and Chord.

Can't agree. There are several fine DACs around and a PC or Mac properly set up for audio is better than any transport I've heard so far, including the ones referred to by Richard, good as those old Meridians are (I have two). You may wish it to be otherwise or disagree and that's fine, but please don't state opinion as fact.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Rui Marques:
Hi,

Reading so many good things about the DAC i keep wondering.

I have a CDS2-555PS, is a CD5XS+DAC+555PS significantly better than CDS2+555PS?

Regards
Rui

If you get the chance to try - I'd suggest a £20 CD transport with optical out into the nDAC/555PS. My expectations (although I don't know the rest of your system) are that it would be better. I'd be (very!) surprised if the CD5XS would be any better than the cheap transport, but then it would be easy to try them side by side.

in one of my compulsive moods, and partly because my system wasnt working so well at the time i sold my cds3, and deployed a cd5i from my spare system in its place. this was in fact suprisingly good, but i missed "something". then, in another compulsive fit, i traded that in for a CDX2 (3rd time i have owned one!), which was a lot better (well thats to be expected anyhow, powered by 555ps). madness took over again before long and i traded the cdx2 in for cdx2.2/DAC. initially this sounded so so -- but then my system wasnt that hot anyhow at the time. but as i got to the bottom of issues with my system, the DAC/555ps began to show its true worth musically and i can honestly say i no longer miss my cds3 at all now. i havent done anything clever with this setup, still using it as a xport/dac arrangement --not that digitally savvy you see, but the important point is that i am very happy with the nDAC. i am expecting that when i get my system finaly sorted out this week, it will be even better. cant wait.

so, yes, i agree, the nDAC is a special piece of kit and extremely good value for money, relvative to other naim kit of similar quality.

enjpy
ken

quote:

Can't agree.

Neither can I.

I recently had a good listen to the N-Dac at my mates who had one on home demo from his dealer. It was well run in, not fresh out of the box.

Initially I was extremely impressed, almost enough to consider ordering one.

As time wore on it became too bright and my previous experience [at Salisbury and Bristol show] of an over processed/artificial sound came again, the more complex and detailed the music, the bigger the effect. To me it sounds both hyper detailed and glossed over at the same time. And it’s as if it is being processed into some sort of surround sound but put through 2 channels. Also it has a sort of forced sound, rather like a badly recorded / mixed loudness too, there is no subtlety. No substance or depth, everything is a facsimile of the original. I have heard 2 other DAC’s which, to my ears, don’t have these issues and both were more engaging to listen to too.

It was better at my mates than I have heard previously though. No break up deep in the mix like I heard at Salisbury/Bristol. That may have been an artifact of the source [transport] rather than being ripped and streamed but I couldn’t be sure.

Just my 2p.

I can understand that my opinions are more extreme than many others due to my relatively limited exposure to "digital" music but what I have heard from Naim CD players in different systems including my own [eg CD5x, CDX/2, CDS2/3 and 555] is a far more faithful attempt at reproducing music.

Julian

seems obsession with changing and upgrading

quote:

Originally posted by rich46:
seems obsession with changing and upgrading

Not for me. My system has remained unchanged (apart from some servicing) since 2000 when I bought the 135s....

quote:

Originally posted by rich46:
seems obsession with changing and upgrading

yes, you are probably right. shall i call the men in white coats?

enjoy
ken

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
As time wore on it became too bright and my previous experience [at Salisbury and Bristol show] of an over processed/artificial sound came again, the more complex and detailed the music, the bigger the effect. To me it sounds both hyper detailed and glossed over at the same time. And it’s as if it is being processed into some sort of surround sound but put through 2 channels. Also it has a sort of forced sound, rather like a badly recorded / mixed loudness too, there is no subtlety. No substance or depth, everything is a facsimile of the original. I have heard 2 other DAC’s which, to my ears, don’t have these issues and both were more engaging to listen to too.

Was it powered by an external power supply? That's generally what the power supplies iron out on Naim kit. Taking it away from a digital sound...

quote:

Was it powered by an external power supply? That's generally what the power supplies iron out on Naim kit. Taking it away from a digital sound...

No it was not but on two of the previous times I heard one, it was, so that does not fix it for me I am afraid.

Julian

quote:

No it was not but on two of previous times I heard it, it was, so that does not fix it for me I am afraid.

personal preference is one ever present variable in this hobby of ours. i am very impressed with my cdx2.2/nDAC/555ps. of course i am not saying its the "best" -- i dont have the means to establish that.

enjoy
ken

Have you guys read Richard Dane's post on the subject of transports?
It's very well written and echoes my own experiences when listening to the nDAC with different transports. The better the transport, the better the end result.
If you can't tell the difference then your lucky and you don't have to spend more money. Or perhaps lucky is the wrong word.....
Regards,
Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by ken c:

quote:

No it was not but on two of previous times I heard it, it was, so that does not fix it for me I am afraid.

personal preference is one ever present variable in this hobby of ours. i am very impressed with my cdx2.2/nDAC/555ps. of course i am not saying its the "best" -- i dont have the means to establish that.

enjoy
ken

One mans personal preference is anothers heavily flawed. Hey ho.

quote:

One mans personal preference is anothers heavily flawed. Hey ho.

do i get this to mean you believe the nDAC is heavily flawed? Hey ho, as you say...

enjoy
ken

quote:

Originally posted by Steve O:
Have you guys read Richard Dane's post on the subject of transports?

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve O:
It's very well written and echoes my own experiences when listening to the nDAC with different transports. The better the transport, the better the end result.

I can understand why better transports would sound better on a DAC NOT using RAM based reclocking technology, but not the nDAC which does.

Can someone explain at a technical level why they might sound different? Certainly the experiences of my and my mate bear out the technically expected result that transports don't matter. Either that or the nDAC is SIGNIFICANTLY better than a CDS3 DAC section and this allows a lowly PC USB SPDIF interface to sound as good as a CDS3 head end.

I can agree. With Julian.

From my experience, I found the Naim Dac SOUNDED more detailed than a CDS2. The CDS2 SOUNDED smoother and more laid back. It becomes obvious after prolonged listening to both that the CDS2 is resolving far more detail. This doesn’t prove the CDS2 is better than the DAC, on some material I prefer the DAC. However, when the mix gets complicated the DAC doesn't come close to the CDS2.

Actually, let me come back on my own post. Lets suppose the transports read data incorrectly, and the cheaper the transport the more errors there are. Then yes, it will make a difference as the data would be flawed.

BUT with computer audio, you rip once (and with EAC and AccurateRip you nearly always know if you have bit-perfect rips), and the replay would be the same every time and equivalent to a perfect transport.

Conclusion -> the best transport is a streaming player. How many who have different transports have tried them against a streaming player with confirmed bit-perfect rips from EAC?

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
Conclusion -> the best transport is a streaming player. How many who have different transports have tried them against a streaming player with confirmed bit-perfect rips from EAC?

The same rule applies to streamers as CD transport. There are both high and poor quality streamers.

quote:

Originally posted by fatcat:
The same rule applies to streamers as CD transport. There are both high and poor quality streamers.

True. But only if they mess with the data before output. For example, my XP machine won't output 44.1 over SPDIF but will via USB. It sounds a LOT better via USB than SPDIF. Bit perfect streamers should (will?) all sound the same... They should (will?) only sound different if they mess with the data and this will be a software/driver issue. It IS possible to get bit-perfect output cheaply. I';;d be quite happy to stack my £200 HTPC/nDAC with XPS against the highest end transport you care to provide/nDAC/XPS any day.