Why is the nDAC so cheap?

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
Yawn.

Thorsten

You seem to have it in your nature to be rude, haven't you?
-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by DarrellK:

2. More specifically, Naim, while stopping short of claiming that DAC makes all sources sound the same, do more than imply that the DAC is designed as a great leveler of sources, and have published a quite detailed white paper to back this up.

3. And more practically, my own next upgrade is likely to be in this area of my system.

2) Where in the white paper do they imply that?

3) Then demo different sources with the DAC and accept the outcome. If something is better, get it. If not, don't.

2. Throughout the white paper, NAIM explain how they have approached the various challenges involved in recovering the datastream from S/PDIF, and how they have "minimised" the problems.

3. When the time comes, I most certainly will. But I'd still like to understand the theory. For me, ignorance is never bliss.

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
Yawn.

Thorsten

You seem to have it in your nature to be rude, haven't you?
-
aleg

Nope.
But to get easily bored with tons of postings and threads about "how everything should sound the same through the nDAC".
Even a loaf of bread.


Sorry...didn´t mean to be rude, just honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
Nope.
But to get easily bored with tons of postings and threads about "how everything should sound the same through the nDAC".
Even a loaf of bread.


Sorry...didn´t mean to be rude, just honest.

Thorsten

That was just my point to begin with, let somebody give some answers so we can get it over with, because it is not just boring but also frustrating to see the same arguments over and over again without leading to something conclusive.

For me personaly, sources don't have to sound the same. I already know for certain they don't. But being so, it would be nice to know why and following that, with the knowledge gained, try to steer in the direction of getting one's personal sources sound best as possible.

For me there is of course also a lot of curiousity because for me it is contra-intuitive that the 'same' bits don't give the same results.

-
aleg

Ok...I see now, thanx aleg!

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Thorsten_Lux:
Yawn.

Thorsten

You seem to have it in your nature to be rude, haven't you?
-
aleg

Nope.
But to get easily bored with tons of postings and threads about "how everything should sound the same through the nDAC".
Even a loaf of bread.


Sorry...didn´t mean to be rude, just honest.

It's not compulsory to read every thread. There are threads in the Music section regarding types of music in which I have no interest. I don't add posts in those threads saying I'm bored - I just don't read them.

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:
I cannot easily compare the bits coming out of the SPDIF output with the actual file I fed into the program.

Yes you can. Very easily. Use something like the m-audio transit to "record" your output. Compare back to the original file.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
It may be the first time you have heard reference to source jitter but the forum has discussed it - mainly with regard to Naim CD player design.

Just some examples:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...385/m/6332957607/p/1

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...471982744#8471982744

http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...385/m/3351908753/p/1

As far as I can see, that refers to transport jitter - not source jitter which is jitter when you convert from analogue source to digital storage - i.e. at the mixing/mastering stage. As I said, just something else for people to misinterpret.

I'll quote again from the White Paper:

quote:

What is jitter exactly?
Jitter is variations in the time separation of digital audio samples. All S/PDIF induced jitter coming in to the Naim DAC is removed, except for the encoded jitter caused by the mastering analogue to digital conversion done in the studio where the CD was mastered.

All jitter is removed. Period. Except that encoded at A->D conversion. Crikey, talk about being overly detailed

Perhaps we should all try some Nama paint in our systems.... (was doing some searching and found this which made me laugh out loud again some 9 years later: http://forums.naim-audio.com/e...385/m/2491931221/p/1 )

With all these "discussions" I am starting to consider getting a Naim CD5X or CDX2 converted to have digital out. If just to pacify myself that there are minute differences even after all the buffering magic that the nDAC performed, just in case.

From the outside the CD5i/5X and CDX2 looks to have the same transport. So in theory should they be extremely close when only used to read signal out to the digital section?

What are the theoretical differences? The price differences between the two when new was quite big.

And how much does that translate into the gap between the 5X and the CDX2?

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
With all these "discussions" I am starting to consider getting a Naim CD5X or CDX2 converted to have digital out. If just to pacify myself that there are minute differences even after all the buffering magic that the nDAC performed, just in case.

The cheapest way of finding out if you can hear differences is to try a USB stick. Most people who can hear a difference say that is the best source (and if there are differences, at least you could theorise why it would be better as the data is clocked out using the DAC as a master to the system).

If you have a USB stick lying around, you can try it quite easily....

Original CDX2 transport



later CDX2/CD5X transport



They look as different as they sound to me.

Well... another hour or so of comparing the htpc->nDAC and USB->nDAC and....

.... I can't hear a difference. <shrug>

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
Well... another hour or so of comparing the htpc->nDAC and USB->nDAC and....

.... I can't hear a difference. <shrug>

Andy

Could it be dependant on the specific installation?

Cable dressing, cable length, cable construction influencing the analogue section more strongly or less so in one's individual setup?

I know my cable dressing is less than optimal right now due to limited space for the rack and also I'm using a 3 mtr length coax to bridge the distance between mediaplayer and hifi kit.

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:
Andy

Could it be dependant on the specific installation?

Cable dressing, cable length, cable construction influencing the analogue section more strongly or less so in one's individual setup?

I know my cable dressing is less than optimal right now due to limited space for the rack and also I'm using a 3 mtr length coax to bridge the distance between mediaplayer and hifi kit.

-
aleg

Possibly. I'm connected with a very cheap optical cable (£4 for 5m cable) and the unit is about 3m away from the DAC. The only "common" electrical connection is that they are both on the same ring main.

If it is this, it should be easy (and very cheap - just buy the cheapest off ebay) for someone who can hear differences to try out a long optical cable and move their transport a long way from the DAc.

Whilst I'm here, if anyone is finding that different software players sound different, the only way this could happen is if they aren't producing bit-perfect output.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Best tried by people for themselves, I think. I have iTunes, Pure Music and Amarra and there are definite sonic differences using the same file. All produce bit perfect output, so the story doesn't end with that for me.

Joe

How do you know they produce bit perfect output - have you captured the output streams and done a bit-for-bit comparison? Digits is digits at the software player level - there is no magic - this I'm certain of

Just 'cos you have 44.1kHz out of the back of the PC does NOT mean you are guaranteed bit perfect output - the player could have messed with the 16 bit word before it is output.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Best tried by people for themselves, I think. I have iTunes, Pure Music and Amarra and there are definite sonic differences using the same file. All produce bit perfect output, so the story doesn't end with that for me.

Joe

How do you know they produce bit perfect output - have you captured the output streams and done a bit-for-bit comparison? Digits is digits at the software player level - there is no magic - this I'm certain of

Just 'cos you have 44.1kHz out of the back of the PC does NOT mean you are guaranteed bit perfect output - the player could have messed with the 16 bit word before it is output.

Andy,

I did withdraw the post on the basis that you seemed to have made up your mind on something and are spoiling for an argument. Given that you don't hear any differences between sources - and we have different Macs/set-ups so it's probably not worth the discussion. These "all that measures sounds the same" discussions were no more fun when they were about amps/CDPs.

I don't know anyone else who has had the nDAC and not preferred the WAV off the USB for example, so we obviously hear things differently.

I have a Weiss DAC2 here. It has firmware that allows you to play bit perfect test files at all sample rates and indicates on the DAC that it is receiving bit perfect output. I have played the same files through all three audio players. They all check out and if you do anything to interfere with them (like adjusting the volume in iTunes) it immediately indicates as not bit perfect.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
I did withdraw the post on the basis that you seemed to have made up your mind on something and are spoiling for an argument. Given that you don't hear any differences between sources - and we have different Macs/set-ups so it's probably not worth the discussion. These "all that measures sounds the same" discussions were no more fun when they were about amps/CDPs.

Hi Joe, oops... didn't see you had withdrawn your post...

No, not spoiling for an argument, I just can't begin to imagine how they can sound different through different players.

quote:

I don't know anyone else who has had the nDAC and not preferred the WAV off the USB for example, so we obviously hear things differently.

I think there are people who hear differences and prefer the USB, and those that don't. I'm sure I've seen more than one person say they can't hear any difference....

quote:

I have a Weiss DAC2 here. It has firmware that allows you to play bit perfect test files at all sample rates and indicates on the DAC that it is receiving bit perfect output. I have played the same files through all three audio players. They all check out and if you do anything to interfere with them (like adjusting the volume in iTunes) it immediately indicates as not bit perfect.

OK - I'm not familiar with the Weiss. As long as we've ruled out bit imperfect, I'm at a loss to try and explain any other differences. <shrug again>

Andy

quote:

I think there are people who hear differences and prefer the USB, and those that don't. I'm sure I've seen more than one person say they can't hear any difference....

Andy, most of the people whom I know will not hear a difference. The other people will possibly capture a small difference which will be insignificant to them.

Many people ask : why should we bother of these minuscule differences which hardly can affect my enjoyment?

The answer is -- it's important to train yourself to hear these small details and project them for the long term. Because some small wrinkles in demo session in show room may result later on in complete frustration after prolonged listening.

Andy -- just in case if you did not notice -- this is an AUDIOPHILE forum

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
I did withdraw the post on the basis that you seemed to have made up your mind on something and are spoiling for an argument. Given that you don't hear any differences between sources - and we have different Macs/set-ups so it's probably not worth the discussion. These "all that measures sounds the same" discussions were no more fun when they were about amps/CDPs.

Hi Joe, oops... didn't see you had withdrawn your post...

No, not spoiling for an argument, I just can't begin to imagine how they can sound different through different players.

quote:

I don't know anyone else who has had the nDAC and not preferred the WAV off the USB for example, so we obviously hear things differently.

I think there are people who hear differences and prefer the USB, and those that don't. I'm sure I've seen more than one person say they can't hear any difference....

quote:

I have a Weiss DAC2 here. It has firmware that allows you to play bit perfect test files at all sample rates and indicates on the DAC that it is receiving bit perfect output. I have played the same files through all three audio players. They all check out and if you do anything to interfere with them (like adjusting the volume in iTunes) it immediately indicates as not bit perfect.

OK - I'm not familiar with the Weiss. As long as we've ruled out bit imperfect, I'm at a loss to try and explain any other differences. <shrug again>

Andy

more comments on this thread about weiss .will this comment be delated

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
The answer is -- it's important to train yourself to hear these small details and project them for the long term. Because some small wrinkles in demo session in show room may result later on in complete frustration after prolonged listening.

Andy -- just in case if you did not notice -- this is an AUDIOPHILE forum

LOL... But I can hear differences between different cables hooking up the DAC to the 52 - immediate and not to my ears subtle, and I can hear a huge difference when routing the DAC output through the TV and back into the pre. It's not that I can't hear differences, just I can't hear any with different sources on the nDAC

You got hold of an optical cable yet?

Perhaps someone could test a laptop with optical output (and verified bit-perfect playback) into the DAC while running the laptop from its battery, and compare that with USB. I'd be very interested in the results...

Darrell

quote:

Originally posted by DarrellK:
Perhaps someone could test a laptop with optical output (and verified bit-perfect playback) into the DAC while running the laptop from its battery, and compare that with USB. I'd be very interested in the results...

Darrell

...... and patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach balancing on one leg.

I really don't know why some people are so against trying to use some sort of methodical/scientific method to isolate the reasons for the reported differences between different sources. Without science and the application of the scientific method hifi would not exist, and surely we don't regard Naim as some sort of high priesthood, the only people worthy of this knowledge?

quote:

You got hold of an optical cable yet?

Andy, I think you have missed my thread on Testing digital cables.

But the Transport_on_nDAC is a different issue.
I still need some time and consultancy to understand the reasons on why they sound different. I would better say -- why bad transports sound worse on nDAC (because high quality transports do sound similar through nDAC).

One reason is on the surface -- misreading the bits from the data storage.

The second is that bad SPDIF generators mess the bits up when building up the bitstream.

The third one (sigh) is that SPDIF receivers can mess up the bits in highly jittered and RF polluted/echoed bitstream

But we can not incentivise you for closer look up into this problem (with oscilloscope) until you hear the difference with your own ears Am I right?

As I told before Naim engineers can resolve this issue (if they want to) -- they only need to compare the bitstream chunk in DAC's memory buffer and original datafile.

It's soooo EASY doable -- and this can close the chapter.
Possibly Naim engineers have already done these tests -- and now chuckling around reading the forum debates