Why is the nDAC so cheap?

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

If you've read this thread, you'll be able to predict my answer: (iv)

Given your zealous viewpoint and lack of experience with the sources you are disparaging, I cant imagine anyone taking any of your advice. But that's just me....

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

I'll ask it another way around. If the nDAC is affected by jitter from the source, by what mechanism does it get mixed in with the DAC clock? I've set out my understanding of the system, based on Naims white paper but no one has managed to describe how this jitter would get into the DAC clock. What is that mechanism?

Maybe it doesnt incorporate itself into the clock. Maybe it simply injects a healthy dose of electrical noise.

Are you saying there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to hook something up to the DAC and not degrade the sound?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Maybe it doesnt incorporate itself into the clock. Maybe it simply injects a healthy dose of electrical noise.

How?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Are you saying there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to hook something up to the DAC and not degrade the sound?

No, bit I am saying that if it is operating as described, the methods that people have suggested here won't inject any. There's always interference back through the mains or electromagnetic interference, but you'd notice these even if the particular unit in question was just plugged into the mains and not playing anything. Or you'd get better sound if the fridge were off.. etc...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
There's always interference back through the mains or electromagnetic interference, but you'd notice these even if the particular unit in question was just plugged into the mains and not playing anything. Or you'd get better sound if the fridge were off.. etc...

Oh I didnt know that EVERY form of interference was audible to the ear. I assumed some could simply affect the music replay negatively.

I have never "heard" a ground loop other than through its effect on the music. I guess I need to clean my ears.

Also I didnt know that just because the DAC can effectively select the correct clock (and light up "sync") entailed that the data was free of any kind of interference.

Lastly, so there is NO possible way that the digital cable used can affect the sound quality? It is physically impossible?

There is no way a transport or streamer can somehow re/upsample and jack things up so bad as to sound different from another source?

Regardless of your electrical acumen, I find it hard to believe "immune" is correct here.

Hyperbole and placebo aside, which there is plenty of in this Forum (no argument there), I cannot discount the experience of dozens.

In the end though, if it sounds different it does. If you dont hear a difference, no amount of hifaces or will tell you otherwise.

The reasons and motivation are moot.

As with everything discussed here with kit or actual music. USE YOUR OWN EARS.

If you hear an improvement, can afford it and justify the expense, go for it.

If you have a problem with that, do as I do when i hear people claim to feel the "presence of the Lord". I mentally roll my eyes, and keep my thoughts to myself.

-patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Given your zealous viewpoint and lack of experience with the sources you are disparaging, I cant imagine anyone taking any of your advice. But that's just me....

My zealous viewpoint is born from the fact I can tell differences between equipment easily enough - and I do. The system I have is easily capable of resolving at that level. My own experience with the nDAC is such that I can tell NO difference AT ALL between the sources I have tried (and I've tried USB too!).

What no one has done is supplied a credible way the sound could be influenced. I believe I can supply a credible reason why it can't be influenced by source - can you (or anyone else) supply a reason why it would? I'm perfectly happy to learn, and have it explained to me...

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
There's always interference back through the mains or electromagnetic interference, but you'd notice these even if the particular unit in question was just plugged into the mains and not playing anything. Or you'd get better sound if the fridge were off.. etc...

Oh I didnt know that EVERY form of interference was audible to the ear. I assumed some could simply affect the music replay negatively.

I have never "heard" a ground loop other than through its effect on the music. I guess I need to clean my ears.

Well, if it isn't audible - how is it affecting the sound - no - really - go on - explain that..... Ground loops wouldn't come into it if the system is electrically isolated anyway (e.g. through optical - why do you think Naim recommend that method of connection?) and they are audible if you know how to look for them.

You seem to be getting frustrated with me. Is it because I'm actually asking for a little proof of how these things affect the sound rather than religiously following the dogma?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:

You will find any DAC source dependent.

Joe

You may wish it to be otherwise or disagree and that's fine, but please don't state opinion as fact.

Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
What no one has done is supplied a credible way the sound could be influenced. I believe I can supply a credible reason why it can't be influenced by source - can you (or anyone else) supply a reason why it would? I'm perfectly happy to learn, and have it explained to me...

Andy,

All your verbiage is completely academic. Whether someone can satisfy you in explaining the differences they are hearing is beside the point, many people here, including me, do.

Some of us have conducted double blind listening tests - and picked the differences.

That we cannot academically explain what we are hearing does not invalidate our empirical tests.

In my system I hear no differences between flac and WAV. In Graham Russell's I do.

If you don't hear any difference in your system great, use whatever front end you want - but what you are hearing is not universally applicable.

M

No one needs to give you proof of anything.... although they are giving you proof through their experiences.

There is NO reason why we all need or should have the same experience.

Why is a particular piece of art not attractive to me. Are my eyes broken? We are both looking at the same painting, in the same light, at the same time. I dont appreciate it, you do? How do account for that difference mechanically, physically?

Does it matter? Or are you willing to accept it without a white paper.

quote:

... but please don't state opinion as fact.

Rotf

Dear ROTF,

I completely agree with your comment.

Not aimed at anyone specifically, but for those that the cap fits, then please do wear it ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:
There's always interference back through the mains or electromagnetic interference, but you'd notice these even if the particular unit in question was just plugged into the mains and not playing anything. Or you'd get better sound if the fridge were off.. etc...

Oh I didnt know that EVERY form of interference was audible to the ear. I assumed some could simply affect the music replay negatively.

I have never "heard" a ground loop other than through its effect on the music. I guess I need to clean my ears.

Well, if it isn't audible - how is it affecting the sound - no - really - go on - explain that..... Ground loops wouldn't come into it if the system is electrically isolated anyway...

You were the one that said I could hear interference even if the unit was powered down and not plugged in.

All I was saying I could not "hear" the ground loop until music was playing.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:

You will find any DAC source dependent.

Joe

You may wish it to be otherwise or disagree and that's fine, but please don't state opinion as fact.

Rotf

Which is it be ROTF? USB and coax sound the same to you? Thought not.

Joe

PS. The reason Naim have the Chassis/Float switch on the back of the DAC is to allow you to eliminate ground loop effects if they exist

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
Andy, it was going back a while, during the development of the Naim DAC if I recall correctly. I was theorising that based upon the DAC design, then you could pretty much put any digital source (such as a £25 DVD player) on the DAC and it would sound identical to even the highest-end CD transport. The answer was that while this was, on the face of it, a sound theory, in practice there are a number of factors (touched on above) that would still have a marked effect on performance.

Indeed.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Maybe it doesnt incorporate itself into the clock. Maybe it simply injects a healthy dose of electrical noise.

How?

Hi Andy,

A question: what would happen if a source was so completely broken that it sent random noise down the S/PDIF intermingled with the digital signal? (Maybe this is outside the scope of this discussion, as it would not be a "bit perfect" source?)

By the way, my instinct is to agree with your approach - always ask "why?", as we eventually either gain understanding of a previously mysterious effect, or can reject the effect as spurious (placebo, etc). This is the only way that knowledge is gained. This approach is the opposite of zealous, and I don't believe you have disparaged any source component in any of your posts.

Darrell.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
You were the one that said I could hear interference even if the unit was powered down and not plugged in.

If you re-read what I wrote, you'll see I was saying that if the unit were plugged in (and on) it could affect the sound by injecting noise back onto the mains - just as a fridge can inject noise spikes back into the mains and make the speakers pop when it switches on.

Please remember, my position is based on scientific principles, not Peter Belt like disciplism...

quote:

Originally posted by DarrellK:
Hi Andy,

A question: what would happen if a source was so completely broken that it sent random noise down the S/PDIF intermingled with the digital signal? (Maybe this is outside the scope of this discussion, as it would not be a "bit perfect" source?)

Try injecting AC-3 into the DAC. It plays it but it is all buzzes (I've tried it for a few seconds!).

quote:

By the way, my instinct is to agree with your approach - always ask "why?", as we eventually either gain understanding of a previously mysterious effect, or can reject the effect as spurious (placebo, etc). This is the only way that knowledge is gained. This approach is the opposite of zealous, and I don't believe you have disparaged any source component in any of your posts.

Darrell.

Thanks - appreciated

Andy - what transports (including streaming / PC front ends) have you tried with the DAC ?

James

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Indeed.

Joe

Yes, I'm not worthy... Nothing scientific - just an out of context quote and the world is right as far as the believers are concerned as the inner sanctum of Naim designers must be right. After all, it's stuff you wouldn't understand. Why don't you try me - you may be surprised!!

To be honest, if I had to put up with that attitude in my day job, none of the problems that face me would ever get solved

Does it ever cross your mind that Naim have a vested interest to say a more expensive transport performs better than a cheaper one?

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Andy - what transports (including streaming / PC front ends) have you tried with the DAC ?

James

HTPC, cheap DVD, USB. No difference between any of them. Very little difference between 24/96 samples on USB and 16/44.1 either.

As mentioned somewhere in the posts, my mate is swapping his CDS3 head end for the nDAC being fed out of a PC. Very little difference to him (into 252/250/DBLs...)

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
Not if that jitter arrives at the DAC as an inherent part of the signal, which seems to be what people are referring to in jitter introduced by the source.

Yes, but with the nDAC it can't (or Naim are lying about how their DAC works!!). By reclocking the data with a high precision clock, the nDAC removes the jitter due to anything arriving at or before the SPDIF interface.

From their white paper:

quote:

Naim’s buffer or memory method of jitter removal relies on a simple concept: the audio data is clocked into the memory at the incoming, inconsistently timed rate and is then clocked out of the memory and into the DAC chips using a precise clock.

The key thing about the nDAC is it operates differently to most other DACs that sync their DAC clock to the incoming bitstream - jitter and all.

I'll ask it another way around. If the nDAC is affected by jitter from the source, by what mechanism does it get mixed in with the DAC clock? I've set out my understanding of the system, based on Naims white paper but no one has managed to describe how this jitter would get into the DAC clock. What is that mechanism?

Jitter doesn't get into the DAC clock. The quote from the white paper simply states the audio data that enters the memory buffer inconsitanty timed leaves the memory buffer precision timed.

It only eliminates TIMING jitter. Any other jitter present in the audio data enters the memory and leaves the memory, although it does so at a very precice rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy S:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Indeed.

Joe

Yes, I'm not worthy... Nothing scientific - just an out of context quote and the world is right as far as the believers are concerned as the inner sanctum of Naim designers must be right. After all, it's stuff you wouldn't understand. Why don't you try me - you may be surprised!!

To be honest, if I had to put up with that attitude in my day job, none of the problems that face me would ever get solved

Does it ever cross your mind that Naim have a vested interest to say a more expensive transport performs better than a cheaper one?

Andy,

You seem to be on your own with this, I accept you are reporting what you find. But plenty of people here have been through this with plenty of DACs. Benchmark made the same case for the DAC1 yonks ago.

Having had one. There were sonic differences between sources with that too, which points to the re-clocking not being the sole arbiter of the output. People are reporting differences pretty consistently. Maybe you are the only soldier on parade who's in step.

The appeal of what you contend is seductive. Myself and the others here just haven't found that to be the case.

There is plenty I would (and have) criticised Naim for, over-priced power supplies and CD players - you name it. Including making this claim (although I thought they said "minimised" in the white paper, but no matter). In practice it isn't what I or others have heard. I don't trust measurements - too many things that measure well don't sound like it.


Joe

my experience.

latest cyrus transport
rega saturn dig out
sony xs 3000 dig out(sacd)
philip dvd £50 dig out

sangling 1500 dig out

the difference is not has wide as one would expect

the cyrus seems alittle more open .but the rega is extremely close to cyrus via the ndac.

after 5 months with the dac i conclude that the difference are there but small .

if i had only digital source i would stick to a standard cd player combo.
but that really is not the what this is about, the ndac is a great hub for any audio system

quote:

HTPC, cheap DVD, USB. No difference between any of them

Ok - so try a decent transport and then tell us if you can hear a difference between that and the cheap DVD player.

quote:

Originally posted by james n:

quote:

HTPC, cheap DVD, USB. No difference between any of them

Ok - so try a decent transport and then tell us if you can hear a difference between that and the cheap DVD player.

I connected a DVD player to the Naim Dac. I don’t think I listened to more than 2 tracks, before disconnecting it.

I’ve tried 2 USB sticks. One is laid back, better if the Dac not connected to an XPS. The other is dynamic, with loads of prat.

I wonder if analogue aficionados are more sensitive to changes in the Naim Dac front end. After all, our brains are tuned to listen to the music not the sound.