A nice little earner for Tone?

quote:

Originally posted by J.N.:

Am I being cynical?

Cynicism about government is one of the greatest protections against tyranny I reckon.

Nice to see that future policy was highlighted during their recent sleaze campaign - sorry, manifesto.

Bastards.

Completly agree with Deane's comment. But I'm not buying this - it's an election loser. The end result of these impossible-to-implement proposals will be the usual scaled down fudge which was the intention all along - and we'll thank them for it!

Halving (or more) the cost of petrol and abolishing vehicle excise licence? Yeah. I could go for that as a concept. And why not include fully comp insurance in the cost per mile? But I'm dreaming of course. Wasn't road tax was abolished in Ireland with a corresponding price hike on petrol, then brought back on top of the higher fuel prices?

Drivers have a 'kick me' sign pinned on their arses. Nothing's gonna change that. And my father's generation said exactly the same, and probably thier father's too. The highest estimate I've seen for round trip to London from these parts is something like £90 if memory serves. Still cheaper than the trains and a bloody sight less hassle. But I'm sure the reality will turn out to be significantly less severe - if it ever happens.

Vehicle Tracking, Satellite Speeding fines, Locatable Mobile Telephones, CCTV, ID Cards (remote readable?) all somehow acceptable.

We're all on "I'm the twit who voted these control freaks in, Get Me Out of Here"

Our Tone is a control freak and a megalomaniac.

He's also a clever bugger who is playing the long game...

I'm just praying that the French and German economies recover so we can live and work on the Continent.

While listening to to't'telly a spokeman said that GPS was useless between buildings. Lucky nobody drives between buildings then, innit?

Which techno-logic-ally is more likely to avoid global warming and help Britain get within a motorway's breadth of Kyoto instead of its present appalling position?

a) A Straight fuel tax.

b) All this electronix bølløx?

Answers on a postcard please...

This is complete and utter crap. Mind you we should not be surprised given this government's prediliction for control.

Putting aside civil liberties issues do they really believe this is an appropriate means to reduce congestion?

Let's consider the fact that lots of little boxes will need to be made, I guess that will be a nice little earner for a labour party donee. Lots of clever technological things will need to be done such as enabling spy in the sky satellites, building big new computers and big new software - plenty of opportunity there for labour party donees.

Mmm, we will need to set up a nice new shiny qaungo to run this. Lots of high paying jobs for the boys then.

Meanwhile in the real world what happens on day one - ok all new cars will be fitted no doubt with those little boxes. But what about the millions of vehicles on the road already? Big after market in disabling these little boxes will spring up. Congestion will still remain an issue.

Doh. Why not simply increase fuel duty on petrol and be done with it.

And then we have this government's track record with IT projects. No hope there then. Mind you given that this was dreamt up by a transport minister/dept headed up by a starling and a ladybird is this a surprise.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelC:

Doh. Why not simply increase fuel duty on petrol and be done with it.

Because the Public wont accept it.

It's all our fault.

I agree that it's the best method because it;

Penalises users of inefficient cars.

Is a 'per mile' payment - the more you drive the more you pay.

It's easier to collect.

Perhaps this whole satellite thing is just political expediency. The Government say 'we want to introduce this or more duty on petrol. What do you think?'

And we choose petrol duty.

Governments have to be sneaky because most people wont accept anyting that impinges on their car use.

Having said that, I can see some merit in satellite tracking with respect to stolen cars and congestion tracking.

But it does nothing to encourage people to stop driving gas guzzlers and therefore is unacceptable as originally proposed.

Regards

Stephen

quote:

Governments have to be sneaky because most people wont accept anyting that impinges on their car use.

The role of government is to serve the electorate, and as such should not be in the business of trying to sneak unwanted policy past those who put them in power.

Car ownership/use is a right not a privilege and people should be allowed to travel freely without hindrance. Fuel duty provides revenue for the government which in turn gives them an incentive to exacerbate fuel consumption via congestion. The more fuel we burn the more revenue they collect.

From a revenue collecting POV road pricing would be more effective in the long run because at the flick of a switch the charges could be altered for any given stretch of road. Obviously where there are more vehicles the charges would be much higher. On some urban roads the charges could well be greater than the current taxi fare.

Tch$ng tch$ng!

...Until the upheaval of companies scrambling to relocate to less-congested areas (an exercise in leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire no less...) causes the economy to go into meltdown.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:

quote:

Governments have to be sneaky because most people wont accept anything that impinges on their car use.

The role of government is to serve the electorate, and as such should not be in the business of trying to sneak unwanted policy past those who put them in power.

Agreed! However, I've said before that we get the government we deserve.

quote:

Car ownership/use is a right not a privilege and

Oh and you were doing so well there! A right? How so. Which declaration of human rights/consitution says that then? Car ownership causes death, produces greenhouse gases and other pollution, congestion and road rage. You can argue we have a right to free passage, but that doesn't automatically give a right to car ownership.

Whatever happens, we need some way to dissuade car usage alongside an improved public transport and better private (taxi!) services. I'd pay extra for a 'Silent taxi driver' service myself...........

I think most people accept this; they just don't want it to be them who is affected.

Regards

Stephen

What car do you drive Stephen ?

I have this vision of the shock of receiving your monthly itemised road pricing bill. It will be divided into five sections:

1) Low usage road sections - 2p/mile.

281.6 miles @2p/mile = £5.63

2) Medium usage and motorways - 20p/mile.

647.7 miles @20p/mile = £129.54

3) Premium usage (off-peak) - 40p/mile.

44 miles @40p/mile = £17.60

4) Premium usage (peak) £1.50/mile.

89.7 miles at £1.50/mile = £134.55

5) Speeding penalties.

£60/mile or part thereof (minimum 10 yards as trackable by the GPS system) between 10% and 20mph above posted speed limit +1 penalty point to remain on licence for a period of 12 months.

3 instances @ £60/instance = £180 + 3 points.

£150/mile or part thereof between 20 and 30 mph above posted speed limit. 6 penalty points to remain on licence for three years.

None recorded.

More than 30mph above posted limit results in instant engine immobilisation and a court summons. Minimum £500 fine and three month ban.

N/A.

Total bill paid by Direct Debit on 28/5/2010:

£287.32.

Keep your bills down by observing speed limits at all times

I can imagine the same individuals who can't manage to pay utility bills having their engines immobilised because they can't pay their road bills. They'll pay £150 to a backstreet garage to have their immobilisers unblocked and they'll then go on pay-as-you-drive, buying pre-paid driving vouchers from their local coner shop. The rates for pay-as-you-drive will be double the rate of pay monthly, but they will be able to buy hours of parking in bundles at low rates.

The streets will be littered with cars whose immobilisers have kicked in when their drivers have run out of credit.

quote:

Oh and you were doing so well there! A right? How so. Which declaration of human rights/consitution says that then?

Any attempt to actually deny us such a right will result in violations of our basic human rights. The totalitarian road pricing scheme falls into such a category.

I agree that in order to discourage car use without violating the right to move around freely, some alternative and attractive form of transport has to be made available.

More carrot less stick.

Steve T

I agree totally. You know the area in which we live (I too, far enough away).
There are many workers who have to commute to Telford from the Black Country, due to the decline in manafacturing.
They are not payed the best wages, therefore cannot afford the most fuel efficient cars around, so some would argue the case that they would benefit from this scheme less fuel tax, but round trips of 80 miles on some of the most congested roads in the world? They would have to give up their jobs.

Our economy would be crippled.

My Dad has a construction business, if they work in a the city centre they have to use a mini bus to take folk to work, they need their tools and public transport is useless for this.
A 5.45 start for the driver, 70 miles later arrive at work 8am, if they're lucky, with 7 blokes who live, in total, 60 miles from city centre. I won't go into the journey home.

Guy

My g/f has just got a new job in Telford at Stafford Park. The journey is 9 miles further than to West Bromwich where she worked previously but she saves an hour a day on commuting. Oh, and her fuel costs have fallen slightly too. I can only imagine how much the government will charge to commute daily by car to West Brom given congestion levels there, so she was lucky to get a job elsewhere.

Road pricing will cripple the West Midlands conurbation.

One for the glib head-in-in-the-sand twits: We don't choose freely where we live or work. Economic realities do the choosing for us. Where there are jobs there is congestion. You either pay more for your home, you commute, you earn less, or you don't work.

Those are your choices.

Work-from-home opportunities are like wind powered electricity generators - few and far between.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:
I'd pay extra for a 'Silent taxi driver' service myself..........

Was that a silent taxi or a silent driver?

Occasionally I do meet miserable/ignorant bastards who think it is beneath them to pass the time of day conversing with a mere taxi driver. Thus now and again journeys are undertaken in total silence, but for the noise of the engine, tryes and small change rattling in my clip.

What about the human rights of those who choose not to own a car but have to put up with the noise and pollution of those that do? I can only imagine the "pleasure" of living within a mile as-the-crow-flies of any motorway. The constant noise is a form of torture. To live any closer is to be utterly blighted.

When we first moved from the constant roar of overlooking a city to our remote cottage in the countryside we would look up when a car or tractor passed in the lane. That was only three or four times a day to start with.

Within ten years our empty lane had become a rat-run with constant traffic. What caused the traffic? A new motorway several miles away. Then they had to build by-passes for the local villages because of the vastly increased traffic fed into this previously unspoilt area of winding lanes, high hedges and narrow roads.

Now the vast supermarkets with acres of parking moved into derelict plots outside ther towns. This attracted shoppers from many miles around. So they had to upgrade the new bypasses and build new bridges to avoid local traffic having to cross the bypasses. So villages were now virtually cut off but still subjected to the roar of the bypasses. The shopping facilities brought new, but low-paid employment. So they had to start building affordable housing with the necessary feeder roads on more green-field sites. Green hillsides disappeared under new tarmac and new roofs.

The middle classes saw new prosperity and started moving to the area from the midlands. Which was now time-accessible commuting via the new motorway. House prices rose by several hundred percent in only a few years. Forcing out families who had lived there for centuries. To be pushed out of the villages and into council housing.

Now the DIY superstores moved in. Then the vast car showrooms and their own display forecourts. The exhaust and tyre fitters. The vast carpet and furniture sheds sprouted alongside the main roads. Often involving the removal of the sides of a deep cutting which had previously contained the traffic and its noise. Landscaping for business parks went on continuously as they dug ever deeper into the local hillsides.

They needed new council facilities to cope with all the growth. So they built a new town hall and new council offices. Demolishing large areas of run down but highly affordable and historical town housing to do so. Then there was the new wall-of-glass library and reference library to replace the former modest building.

Then the "garden centres with cafés" sprang up with their acres of tarmac carparking on more green-field sites. The caravan sites grew like a virus on the green fields too. Then all the hedges had to come down to make the lanes into safe, wide roads. Which meant making them straighter and levelling them all out. So they had to take down all the original dry stone walls and the historical railway embankments from former mining times. Then they put up thousands of streetlights for car drivers who need more than their headlights to see at night.

Then we left.

" and the dirty old track - was the Telegraph Road"

Mmmm

Nime,

It's called progress. Such progress brings prosperity to many.

NIMBYs like you need a kick up the arse/ can be compensated for your loss whatever it is.

Think of all the thousands of jobs that were created by what was no more than a slight increase in your perceived noise floor level. If it bothers (or bothered) you so much then I suggest you take advantage of free movement possibilities and enjoy sexual departure to pastures new.

Without such progress and economic growth even YOU would eventually feel more than a little pinch.

No man is an island.

Unilateral environmental brakes on our economy will achieve nothing on a global scale; our losses of our dominance in the West will just be mopped up in the East. With a Two-billion+ population out there to enjoy the benefits, in 30 years we won't see the sun in the sky for all the emissions from over there.

With our superior knowledge, and better infrastructure we may yet continue to hold our dominant position. Throw it all away and the gauntlet will surely be picked up elsewhere. Our best best bet is simply to be more mobile, more efficient and simply cut down on waste.

Leaner and meaner is our future not excessive regulation.

Will it work (i.e. ease congestion)?

Will it buggery!

I need to get from A to B.

Public transport is shite/non-existent.

Hmmm; it'll cost me - but I still want/need to get there.

The only change will be that the cheaper, smaller roads might get even more traffic.

It's a democracy. A huge majority want to be able to drive - just build the bloody roads!

John.

Hear hear John!

We get the bloody government we deserve.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HTK:

The highest estimate I've seen for round trip to London from these parts is something like £90 if memory serves. Still cheaper than the trains and a bloody sight less hassle. QUOTE]

Actually not true.

The return price to go from Exeter to London (I know it's in Devon, but I'm using it as an example) is £43.70, cheaper if you book in advance. Whether you consider battling down the M4 and then trying to find (and paying for) a parking space in town to be preferable than the train is surely debateable.

Andy

Well. Let’s break it down.

10am meeting in Whitehall called at short notice (typical example).
Drive to the Station at 05.45 – call it a gallon for the round trip at £4.
Parking £2.
Return to Paddington unknown but was £95 last time.
Train gets me to Bath at 07.00 (if it’s not delayed or cancelled).
Get into London approx 08.30-08.45.
Can probably make to the destination some time between 09.30 and 10.00.
Taxi fare £10.
Total cost in the region of £115 not allowing for wear and tear on car.
If the meeting was starting before 08.30 I’d play safe and get a room the night before – say £100 – which is a conservative estimate. So the cost could go up to around £220.

Alternatively. Jump in the car at 06.00.
Miles for round trip approx 250 at a fuel cost of around £35-40.
Arrive between 08.30 and 09.30.
Congestion charge £5.
Car park £14.
Total cost in the region of £60.

Two of us going by train – approx £115 per person.
Two of us going by car – approx £30 per person.
Excluding wear and tear on car.

For a meeting starting before 08.30, just get up and leave earlier – allowing for probable reduced travel time. You can’t do that with trains.

Could I reduce the costs by getting the Tube? Yep. But why should I? It’s a personal thing but I have safety issues. You have to fend off a drug crazed idiot with a knife in Warren Street Station in the middle of the rush hour to fully appreciate how dangerous public transport can get in extreme situations. I’ve never used the Tube since and have no intention of doing so. That little incident was very amusing (apart from the fighting for my life aspect) which could be a story for another time – he got arrested and banged up but the apprehension of the attacker was almost like something out of a Norman Wisdom film. You had to be there…

So we’ll add personal comfort and safety into the pro car mix. You can’t put a price on this but given a smelly filthy train, full of coughing, sneezing, barging people and asked to choose between that and a comfortable, air conditioned car with a guaranteed seat, I’ll take the car, thanks very much.

What if I didn’t have a car? Well, there is a bus through here, twice a day so I suppose it’s not impossible. Shame it arrives at 10.00 and 14.00 though.

How about getting to Nottingham? My next most popular destination. 3.5 hours in the car, 5 hours when I last did it by train. Complete with a week’s luggage and all my business equipment. Oh yeah, that was easy. Can’t remember how much it cost but I booked in advance and got a good rate. Couldn’t get a seat until Bristol though. And somewhere around Gloucester a bloke in a hat with a clip board demanded additional money (pretty much doubling the fare) because I chose to travel on a day which ended with ‘y’ in a Northerly direction on a train which was apparently designated for cheap rates for any passenger who wasn’t me. Oh how I laughed as I coughed up – remembering how much it had cost me on the phone the week before making sure that when booking that I paid the correct amount for the journey and time of travel.

So assuming you can find a space wide enough to park it, you can stick public transport in a convienient repository and I’ll stick to a mode of transport that works – until such time as we get an infrastructure that actually allows us to go about our business unhindered.



Cheers

Harry