A nice little earner for Tone?

Just because the French look after their farmers and there happens to be three times more of them than British ones (suprising really there's any left at all at all, innit ???) Why should the Brits get on avarage €4000 a year more than their French counterparts from the CAP ?



Fritz Von OH YES THEY DO

Fritz,
Is that relevant to road pricing?

Fritz,

Just by the way, the French farmers probably average less because their farms are averagely smaller.

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
Fritz,
Is that relevant to road pricing?

Wot !!! French Cidre Apples John ?

quote:

Aye, t'is true. Rail privatisation - case closed.

Case not closed. Lessons can be learnt. I agree that privatising railways was a disaster. I also agree that the Tories are equally responsible for the wankery behind our untransport system.

However, the Tories at least are not totalitarianists and do not believe in so-called road pricing whereby they could get to know where you are, when you are, how fast you are at any given time, and could charge you what they liked and when they liked.

For me and many others road pricing is an election issue on its own.

Go on then Steve.

Let's hear what the world's greatest expert on transport would do to cure the British (& the world's disease) for sitting in traffic queues? It is a deep rooted behavioural pattern. It goes back well over 50 years to a time when the roads were practically empty compared with nowadays. I know, because I was there. Kids didn't need pavements back then. They could walk and play everywhere on the roads in town and village or out in the countryside.

Yet people still get into their cars and head off on the same *virtual* empty roads so beloved of the car comicals. Only to find that they are queueing to get out of their own street to fetch their fags from the corner shop 200 yards away. Office workers still start in the morning and still go home at the same time in the evening as they did 50 years ago. They still head off on bank holidays at exactly the same time, on the same route, that they queued on for a total of 18 hours in roasting heat last year.

Over 30 years ago I used to commute by bicycle between two major cities fifteen miles apart. The route was very hilly but in all weathers I could still get there before those I saw in both my home town and then later in the city where I worked.

Even when they built bypasses for the intervening towns and villages. Which meant cars could drive at 60+ for some of the way. I would still see the same cars and the same drivers sitting in the same queues on the main roads into the other city. All that vast expense and nothing had changed?

It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. Yet they have built 100s of thousands of miles of new roads between then and now and gutted most historical town centres in the process. For what? The seats are more comfortable but the view of the boot in front hasn't changed.

Now tell us what you can do......

This City (for its size) probably has one of the finest, cheapest, most efficient 24/7 Public transport systems in the world, and being a born Londoner I can vouch for both (having used both for many years continually to-boot). Driving here (privately) is expensive, fuel is dear, and parking is a nightmare on earth, yet people still do it daily, and get caught in regular bottle-necks.

Fritz Von Cycling & walking seem natural almost

So this is to get motorists off the roads. I suppose that it will, particularly since the Government are not telling us how much it will cost us.. Darling says that it will be revenue neutral, but who do you think will pay the enormous setup and running costs?

It's just a guesw, but I'd reckon probably about £500 to fit out each car, about £100 million in consultancy fees and feasibility studies, at least £1 billion for the computer system, maybe another for sattelite services. I can see it now - lots of juicy contracts for Tony's friends in the consultancy, IT and communications businesses After all that, if past experience of Child Support, Inland Revenue, NHS, Passports, etc is anything to go by, it won't even work.

Don't forget yer ID card when the robot barrier stops you, cos it thinks yer doin a runner on alimony etc from 5 kids and a missus, but you're in fact the Archbishop of Canterbury with the same name

Welcome to a brave new world.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelC:
Welcome to a brave new world.

There's no bravery involved old Son (I do get yer drift) it's pure stupidity & greed³

Nime,

Answer: Forget the island-bound wankery of giving up/deliberately restricting movement and do what every other densely populated European country has done:

Widen the roads and improve the railways. In all, increase the capacity of our transport infrastructure. It may cost us, but it won't cost us as much as doing nothing in terms of falling investment and lead times that shut down what few production facilities we have left.

Wankery 1) The more roads you build the more cars fall from the sky to fill the space.

Wankery 2) Our green and pleasant land.

We have more cars per road mile than any other nation in the world without having any more cars per capita than any of our counterparts on the Continent. OTOH, The french have more roads per square km than any other country in the world. It's subjective I know, but France is greener and pleasanter than the UK.

What blights our landscape is building sprawling estates of homogeneous red brick houses with just enough room between them to pass a fag paper. When prime agricultural land (England's green and pleasant bits) is forever transformed into these ugly monstrosities that have every tree and blade of grass removed as some kind of scorched-earth policy before they even commence the building, the greeny twits don't even bat an eyelid.

Suggest building a new road and they go loopy.

Nobody seemed to care when Blair said in 1997 that an area size of Hampshire would be needed for new housing. Hampshire is a huge county, and is also rather green and pleasant.

That's a bit of an ungrateful attitude Our Steve ! don't forget after everybody out there voted New Labour in for a Turd Term, 2-Jags reiterated his Polished Pledge to build affordable homes right across the land for you, your children; and your childrens children right across all those poncy Tory green belt beauty areas, innit, & as Ribena's full of bloody sugar anyway, and rots kids teeth to buggery, not too mention them never getting regular Dental treatment on the NHS, and having Hovis with real Butter f'tea,it really gives brown bread a whole-wheat new meaning, innit.

Fritz Von What a moaning minny lot, & after all we've done for you, and now yer mither cos we need to patch a few potholes in the highroad up, and have t' pass the at araand again, really some peopel

quote:

2-Jags reiterated his Polished Pledge to build affordable homes right across the land for you,

I'll take that pledge along with all their others + one pinch of salt. Housing has become the new stock market since they screwed that, placing house buying out of reach of ordinary people who just want to own their fucking home.

If the Working Class ceased to exist it had to be reinvented.

I'm glad you saw the humour in it, innit John ! I saw recently (on BBC TV) a report about a German firm now delivering fully completed houses to UK (in kit form) though with really superior materials, and insulation aspects, etc, etc. The concept is quite good actually; I always larf² when UK house merchants talk about (and with double glazing). I live in a house which is over a Century old, the windoews are doubled too, and have coal heating ovens, that look like mini phone boxes covered in thick ceramic tiles, that are also highly efficient, and pleasant (the emission aspect is the only modern 'legal' drawback. When one looks at the rock solid 40's 50' Council houses etc, that have been knocked down in UK (perfect for another 100 years with a bit of quality attention) and the mickey mouse rabbit hutch rubbish called homes, these German style houses (and underground) seem very attractive, and you can naturally build a complex of say six, cutting costs big style, innit.

Fritz Von Mickey Mouse everything seems to be the operative word these days, no wonder the best craftsmen have gone to Ireland to work, talk about coal to Newcastle or Wot !

quote:

It goes back well over 50 years to a time when the roads were practically empty compared with nowadays. I know, because I was there. Kids didn't need pavements back then. They could walk and play everywhere on the roads in town and village or out in the countryside.

50 years ago? We used to be able to play cricket on the road outside the house I grew up in only 20 or so years ago. I wouldn't even want to try crossing that same road now.

10 years ago if my motor was nicked from outside my home the cops even wanted to make a report up !


Fritz Von The good old days eh !

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:

quote:

2-Jags reiterated his Polished Pledge to build affordable homes right across the land for you,

I'll take that pledge along with all their others + one pinch of salt. Housing has become the new stock market since they screwed that, placing house buying out of reach of ordinary people who just want to own their fucking home.

If the Working Class ceased to exist it had to be reinvented.

Which has been the case for as long as I can remember but went exponential in the 80s. That it’s a fact is indisputable but to blame it on a particular party lacks credibility IMO.

That is quite true in that one particular government can't be to blame, though the present one must be accountable for now. Maggie sold off the nations prize quality Council Housing (which have never really been replenished even under Labour of all things, subsequently being a major factor in today's problems). I could never understand the logic of a truly Capitalistic Regime that sold off State owned equity at 'unrealistically low' prices to tennants (purely because they'd lived & paid rent there for a certain period of time) many of who'm promptly sold off (when allowed) and made a nice litlle earner into the bargain, cutting their own throats indirectly as tax payers, the Nations as a whole, and future generations of low income families that Council homes were designed for in the first place, or just those not wanting the 'Burden of Debt for Life with a mortgage', if any bright spark economist come Poli/Socialist can explain that one away to me 'using their owm money', please feel free to do so, innit.


Fritz Von Buying the vote with others dosh

Sir Mick Thatcher selling off the council house stock to sitting tenants many not have been quite as philanthropic (or as myopic) as you imagine Phritz. The very low productivity and appalling work standards of council repair staff with skyrocketing costs of renovation may just have had something to do with it. New insulation standards and millions of rusting metal, single-glazed windows from the 50's were all waiting in the wings like the grim reaper.

Those who took advantage of the deal may well have improved their own properties and garden to a standard well above that achievable by the council renovations staff. By their example the new owners of ex-council properties probably raised the quality of life in council estates by a considerable factor. The "Keeping up with the Jones'" effect is a powerful motivation. You only need to look at a single row of private houses to see the copy-cat syndrome of new roofs, carports, resurfaced drives, fancy railings, Japanese-style gardens etc. I haven't seen a UK council estate in years so my assumptions may well be wide of the mark.

Once purchased the property belonged to the new owner. If they wished to sell their own property than that was their right. I imagine a suitable ex-council property would attract a private buyer at a price which would allow a move to be nearer family. Or even to be nearer the seaside if that was the seller's greatest desire. As a sitting tenant they could only get themselves on a council house transfer list and hope.

Nime

Pish: I've no objection whats'oever to long term Council tennants being given forst option on buying their desired property, and even with local low interest financing, but only when new quality stuff is built (or purchased) for use as Council housing (It is an earner afterall) people don't desire to live in shit, and it's certainly not a class thing, innit.

Allowing sitting tenants to buy their own council house was a fantastic idea for the reasons outlined above by Nime (no you are not far wide of the mark at all.) Once no-go areas have actually become pleasant places to live.

The problem for this government is that it practically wiped out the working class demographic, so now they are doing everything to reverse the trend - not through building more council houses but by creating a bouyant buy-to-let market.

Under New Labour a few privileged capitalists are to be permitted to own houses, cars and have access to the means of production, but not the many.

I agree entirely with you and NIme, and didn't mean to imply or say otherwise, but still stick to the original ethos of selling State owned property(some pedants will say Council/wrong) at realistic prices and not as vote catchers en-mass (of which for Maggie like the Falklands were very effective (to put it mildly)). Anybody in general prefers not to waste their money if they don't have to (the not new 50/50 rent/buy idea is good too when policed properly by non governmental agencies (inc Councils,in fact especially not Councils because of the blackmail aspect openly seen for many moons), it boils down to common sense, and fair policing say (the Bank of England) NOT THE C of E.


Fritz Von Is Beckham too sexy for his razor ?

P.S. Just looked at some old copies of the Economist in my collection (dust laden) and they thought the same at the time, great to sell them/buy new/old quality stuff for cash injection, but buils new quality stuff to employ
British craftsmen, etc, etc, Greed as always obviously gort in the way, no suprises there then, never mind the breakdown in irreparable aspects of society as you Steve, quite rightly pointed out, as if the quality of life had little or no bearing on the whole caboodle, and we'll wash it all together now with Comminity Support Officers who'll afford about as much respect in the street as the average new-well meaning teacher does (male or female) and voluntary workers etc, as our Tony dared to suggest on wednesday lunchtime, What sheer bloody arrogance & ignorance of what's really going on around him, and I mean Britain, not his colleagues either.


WhO#d want to be a Boß ah ?

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
It's just a guess, but I'd reckon ... about £100 million in consultancy fees and feasibility studies, at least £1 billion for the computer system

Ken,

I'd guess:- multiply those figures by 3-5x.

cheers, Martin

So-Called Consultants across the board (even Charities) get around 40%, which is, let's face it ludicrous in the extreme, except for our Mick that is, cos he's ex Post Office.


Fritz Von W.I.