I have found a lot of recent threads fascinating. I thank Tony Lonorgan and others for that. The more I listen and the more I think about this the more important I think it is to have the courage of your convictions and to trust your own ears.
I find it almost impossible to judge anything in a dealer's listening room. My own exact (premodified) system sounds horrendous at Grahams. You must judge the suitability of equipment in your own listening environment. And you must do it with run-in, vaguely warmed up, equipment over a number of days if possible, not hours.
You must also decide what you want from a system. I won't repeat everything here but we all know that any given manufacturers' equipment does not excel in every single area of music reproduction and Naimophiles generally have decided to prioritise those time-honoured virtues of PR&T. The earth is generally flatter here than it is round.
I know these are my priorities (with a few trifling asides), but I'm also a creature of habit. It took me until late 1995 before I could bring myself to buy a CD player, and even then I felt forced into it. I prefer analogue sound, its what I'm used to, its what my ears, brain and body have become attuned to. (Unfortunately, a lack of new vinyl led me to neglect my LP12. Now I'm buying loads second hand for next to nothing. And there is quality new vinyl out there too).
In my own terms I have made very few purchase mistakes but I have made moves for one reason or another which were unneccessary. And there are common factors to these "errors":
1. I didn't have a clear and steadfast idea of exactly what I was trying to achieve but just thought I wanted to upgrade.
2. I didn't trust my own ears.
2. I had neither the wit nor the confidence to refuse to bow to dealer pressure.
When my dealer said "Wow, doesn't that 82 just blow the 32.5 away". I thought "no, not really", but I bought the 82. When my dealer said "doesn't that CDX sound just magnificent" I thought "kind-of". What I should have thought on both occasions was "well yes and no; they both do things very well which are not that important to me. I'm here to follow the tune and to get my feet tapping with a big smile on my face. They help but they do not transform my pleasure. And they're both expensive".
With hindsight (and one bit of foresight) I would say that certain changes have dramatically increased my listening pleasure. These are, in no particular order: Buying 32.5/Hi-Cap/250. Buying Troika. Treating room with acoustic foam. Buying a power supply for the CDX. Buying a Supercap. Buying a CDS2. Putting the speakers on granite stands. And the foresight bit - buying a 52.
Here are the things which, in my own terms, have moved me sideways, a small step forward or a small step back: Getting rid of the Troika. Buying CDX. Buying 82. Buying AE1s. Getting rid of Kans.
The moral of this story is, bow not to dealer or forum pressure; trust your own ears - never trust hearsay, but most of all, be clear about why you're buying this stuff in the first place and measure "upgrades", "downgrades" and "sidegrades" against your own important set of parameters and not somebody else's.
[This message was edited by Alex S on MONDAY 27 August 2001 at 15:58.]
Posted on: 27 August 2001 by BrianD
Agree entirely.
I've lost count of the number of times I've ended a post with something like, 'get a dem', 'get a home loan'. Personally, I don't like buying any hi-fi equipment without having it at home first. I did this even with SBL's from a dealer 150 miles away, getting them on home approval first!
I know there are some '5 second men' around when it comes to the hicap but I couldn't hear any improvement over the snaps when I had the hicap at home. I also couldn't get the improvement a CD3.5 has to offer over my Rotel 965BX. I believed my ears. This wasn't that easy bearing in mind that I had this equipment on home loan wanting to believe it was better because I wanted to upgrade. I tried each unit individually to try to establish what each was doing. I tried the CD3.5 and the HICAP both running in the system together. After a time I took them both out simultaneously and went back to my Rotel and SNAPS and still thought there was no improvement. This was going to cost me over £1800 and it sounded no better to my ears. I can picture people reading this now thinking there must be something wrong with me for not being able to hear this, but I couldn't and that's the end of it. It would have been easy to buy these items. Everyone will tell you that this is a massive upgrade.
Your points #1 and #2 are absolutely critical. You have to know what you're trying to achieve and you have to believe what you hear. Your final paragraph sums it all up.
BTW When you get the Ittok/Aro dem' make sure you believe what you hear. You may well prefer the Ittok. 
If this is the case I won't be advising you to get your lugs syringed or anything.
Brian
Posted on: 27 August 2001 by BrianD
Vuk/Mike
Good post Vuk. I like it.
Yeah, my ears have let me down loads of times over the years. Fortunately though, not buying the CD3.5 and HICAP enabled me to buy what my ears told me were better...a CDX and SBL's.
These improved my system enormously. I'd probably appreciate what a hicap does now that my system is better overall. It's just that, in the context of what I was using then, it didn't.
You both must agree that what really matters is what you yourself hear, not what others hear. I'd guess that from 1813 people on this forum 1812 would think that SBL's are better than Albions. You don't think so, do you Mike? 
Brian
[This message was edited by BD on MONDAY 27 August 2001 at 19:16.]
Posted on: 27 August 2001 by SaturnSF
Every other player may leave you missing so much of the "note shape", but this response does not address what Mr. Pig said, that he doesn't think it's worth the money.
I don't think anybody would argue that a 52, say, isn't significantly better than a 32.5. It may be the best preamp ever, enrich your life, etc., but nothing can take away from the fact that it is a very, very expensive piece of equipment. If money were absolutely no object, then of course buying the complete top range of Naim gear would be a no-brainer. But for most of us money is a major concern. It doesn't matter if the largest leap in sound quality comes by making the largest leap in the product range if that product's cost is beyond what you can afford.
If you upgrade from a Nait to a mid-line amp and preamp you still have made a real improvement, still own killer gear, and shouldn't worry about whether you would have been better off saving another 10 months or 10 years for the top model.
[This message was edited by SaturnSF on MONDAY 27 August 2001 at 22:24.]
Posted on: 27 August 2001 by BrianD
The point I'm making Mike is that despite probably most people thinking highly of SBL's you are quite prepared to believe your own ears, disagree, and to say so. I don't see this as any different to me saying that I couldn't hear any improvement from a hicap over my snaps. It all depends upon the system it's in, the room it's in, and a persons listening priorities. My system was hardly optimised at the time which would be a factor too.
BTW You're right with your comment about Naim amps and alternative speakers. With a Naim amp I've owned....
Kans
Heybrook HB1
JBL L110 (excellent..my brother bought them from me and is still using them. 21 years old now)
Dean Alto II
Saras'
Audio Note K (yuk)
Epos 14
Wilmslow Kit
SBL's
I've never heard of anybody using Naim speakers with alternative amplifiers.
Brian
Posted on: 27 August 2001 by mr saucisson
quote:
don't ask yourself if it is better, ask yourself if it is 'X' thousand pounds better.
yes, but this means completely different things to different people at different times. Although this is surely no different to the way everyone upgrades - ie a combination of can and want - what happens is the result of one pulling one way and the other in the opposite direction, and the outcome varies.
Ie, when I was in my teens, I heard a very early CDS/52 system. I was literally slack jawed in astonishment - but despite all the will in the world, I knew, "this ain't going to happen". So back to the Quads it was.
However, now I am in a different position, and the difference between the setup I've was using recently - a mid range pre-power and a 52/CDS is lessened, probably significantly. But when the chance came up, I went for it - the several thousand pound cost was (just about) affordable, as well as "worth it". By that, I do not mean objectively justifiable "to everyone", or "instead of mana/hutter/fraim/mercedes/skiing trip". I mean to me and my wife at the time we agreed to buy.
Whart I'm trying to say is that different strokes do for different folks, and that idea seems to me to have been lost a bit here. Please can we not have a bit of respect for other peoples perceptions and preferences - and the value, both financial and otherwise - that they attach to them. IE, if someone will not pay for a CD3.5, why should you call them deaf? Conversely, and just as emphatically, I would say to people not feeling a 52/CDS/P9 etc is worth the money, please don't suggest that it is not worth that money to anybody - we're not taking the rap for each other's Visa bills!
Sorry in advance for pissing people off, flame wars were not intended, just trying to promote the idea of a bit of laissez fair - while keeping the debate lively!
Ben
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by ken c
of course, "trust your own ears" is only practical within a small enough equipment domain. we probably ended up using naim as a result of some short listing process, which i dare suggest, did not involve any exhaustive comparative auditioning. OK we were probaby happy with our first (or second) encounter with naim, from which point we contemplated further upgrades within the naim range (largely, but not completely).
my point is yes, by all means "trust your ears" -- very important. but lets not delude ourselves too much. in a sort of subtle manner, other influences have a bearing too. within this hobby of ours, we use meaningless terms like "large change" and worse still, try to relate that to how much this "large change" should cost. i am just as guilty. i believe its a fallacy to think that there is a universal acceptance of how much value should be attached to a particular change (upgrade) -- obvious point again.
taken to a ridiculous and perhaps mischievous conclusion, "trust your ears" might begin to challenge the "source first" principle. however, more to the point is that the two should be used judiciously in combination. for example, price/peer opinion/etc etc (i.e. NOT your ears) might suggest that 82 is always better than 102 is a useful null hypothesis. you then use your ears to test this -- some people have apparently rejected this.
waffle, waffle, waffle,.....
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by Tony L
quote:
we probably ended up using naim as a result of some short listing process, which i dare suggest, did not involve any exhaustive comparative auditioning.
It certainly did with me. When I got into all this stuff I was buying little for myself, though I knew a real hi-fi junky, the sort who goes through four or five amps a year. As a result of tagging along with him to dems and borrowing stuff he had on home dem I heard absolutely tons of stuff over the years.
One of the amps he brought home was a 42 / 110, and whilst he hated it (he's an image freak), I absolutely loved it. Unfortunately I could not afford it, but knew I would get there some day, in the meantime I landed a Onix OA21 which was a sort of higher powered Nait clone, and I believe was the inspiration behind the current Densen range of integrateds. The OA21 kicked ass and proved a very tough act to beat. To my ears my friend never brought a amp home again that bettered my OA21, though I eventually improved on it with a 62 / Hicap / 140…
quote:
my point is yes, by all means "trust your ears" -- very important. but lets not delude ourselves too much.
My feeling is that a dem or whatever needs to be a complete no-brainer otherwise my money stays where it is. I would not dream of paying thousands for a difference that becomes insignificant after a period of a few days. The money has to fundamentally improve the music making ability of the system otherwise I will walk away.
quote:
taken to a ridiculous and perhaps mischievous conclusion, "trust your ears" might begin to challenge the "source first" principle. however, more to the point is that the two should be used judiciously in combination. for example, price/peer opinion/etc etc (i.e. NOT your ears) might suggest that 82 is always better than 102 is a useful null hypothesis. you then use your ears to test this -- some people have apparently rejected this.
My guess is just use the source first principal to help the decision as to what to listen to, and then the trust your ears bit to make the choice as to whether the upgrade is of any musical value to you.
The main problem with all this is getting to hear the stuff you want to, not to mention getting to hear it sounding at anything like its best - I am still disappointed that I never got to hear a Nottingham Analogue deck up against a P9 or LP12, and my forthcoming attempt to check out phono stages will no doubt prove just as fruitless. I don't want to be railroaded into all the normal safe choices due to lack of information, I really want to hear what is out there and make my own decision.
This has been a funny few weeks, after 21 years thinking I had a handle on things to discover that a Nait 2 and Kans is absolutely all I need. Its all working out rather well…
Tony.
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by David Dever
quote:
It is very much in the interests of the manufacturers and dealers that we all continue to upgrade our equipment whenever possible
Does this also include stands? Looks like you've taken the hook, line and sinker on that one.
I agree that the 'Net, in general, has helped buyers of all stripes (not just hi-fi, and not just the inexperienced buyer) to obtain more pre-purchase information (of whatever weight--check your sources).
But it is important to make a distinction between mere information and actual knowledge of the sort that enables you to extract more performance out of your existing system without spending any money at all, by focusing on setup issues. Oddly enough, I would be surprised if many of the box upgrades that you despise were decided upon long before anyone posted to this forum (i.e., pre-purchase but post-decision)...
Dave Dever, NANA
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by Alex S.
I did not expect plaudits for originality when I named this thread. I also said try to work out what it is your ears want to hear. I also suspect that however simplistic a phrase "trust your ears" might be it is rare that we know exactly what we are listening for and are free from any outside influences - forums, friends, dealers, our own poverty or wealth, a bad hangover, the name on the box - whatever.
Sometimes I choose to trust what my ears told me some years ago eg. Lingo and Linto. I can't be bothered to listen to every power supply and phono stage before I buy one. So I trust my ears but I also trust the fact that they originally pointed me towards certain companies, ie. Linn for my turntable and Naim for electronics. (I still don't really trust anyone for speakers after 25 years). Maybe I'll buy a Naim tonearm one day but I won't be buying a Linn amplifier.
Mr Pig writes good sense but I disagree with his "Personally I feel the best value is to be had from the middle of Naim's range, a nice pre-power is a lot better than a Nait, but I just don't think the top-end stuff is worth the money." Actually its the middle of the range CDX and 82 that have caused me most problems. I was happy with LP12/32.5/HC/250 and I would be happy with CDS2/52; its the bit in the middle that has caused me to upgrade, sidegrade and downgrade 'till I'm dizzy.
I think the CDS2 represents excellent VFM compared to a CD12 and the 52 looks a steal compared to the average American safe with a few transistors cemented inside it.
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by ken c
tony:
My guess is just use the source first principal to help the decision as to what to listen to, and then the trust your ears bit to make the choice as to whether the upgrade is of any musical value to you.yes, my point exactly. complicated by the fact that you cant always listen to what you short list by whatever shortlisting method you use ("trust you ears" not really practical here... )
dave d: ...knowledge of the sort that enables you to extract more performance out of your existing system without spending any money at all, by focusing on setup issues.
somewhat paradoxically, i actually believe that companies such as naim stand to make more money if naim users' systems out there in the wide world are working at their absolute best level. and if the set up process is made as easy (less black magic) as possible. one force that has driven all my upgrades is when whatever system i have at the time is sounding f*****g good, and i develop a curiosity as to what the next level will sound like. if this potential upgrade brings me closer to the music and i can afford it, i will get it. i can pretend that this is because the difference is "huge" "no brainer", etc etc -- but these terms are just ways of saying that i am willing to pay money for the upgrade.
alex: I can't be bothered to listen to every power supply and phono stage before I buy one. So I trust my ears but I also trust the fact that they originally pointed me towards certain companies, ie. Linn for my turntable and Naim for electronics.
yep!!! when i demmed cartridges, i couldnt listen to a lyra because my dealer didnt stock one. looking for one that did would have been too much effort, and who knows whether this other dealer would have set up the naim active system as well as simon@ainfidelity did?
yes, trust your ears, but dont fool yourself that all your decisions are based on that alone.
joe petrick, what equipment rack should i buy next?? and dont give me this "listen for yourself" hogwash...
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 28 August 2001 by Phil Barry
often.
Martin and Ken have asserted essentially the same point - when it's right (for you), you know it instantly.
Like Tony, I no longer accept anything but the no-brainer change (though fortunately I can risk a couple of hundered dollars on a complete unknown). Agonizing over a piece of equipment is luckily in the past for me.
I never short-listed Naim. I first heard Naim stuff when I was looking for a replacement for my 14 year old Dynaco SCA-80Q. I listened to a LOT of candidates. Finally, I was in a Naim dealer's shop, and out of frustration I simply said, 'Please play the best stuff you've got in this room.'
He did, and 'it' just 'felt right' from the first notes (through Linn Index speakers). The cost was too high at the time. I didn't even ask more than the btrand name of the stuff he played, and I didn't think I would ever be able to afford this gear - probably a 42/110, with maybe a SNAPS - but I decided to get as close to that feeling as possible.
Maybe you need to trust your senses, not your ears. In my case, trusting my senses has resulted in increasing enjoyment over the past 17 years of listening to music at home. My senses haven't led me astray, except possible for the Cirkus (a minor error at worst).
Ah, well. My leader has just appeared - back to a meeting.
Regards.
Phil
(If I could only be so lucky... 
)