The great debate: 102 vs. 72

On loot 72/HiCap/250 all boxed and newer styles £595! ... and before you ask yes it sold to first seller at 6am in the morning... I was the 5th caller at 6:45am!

Dam that would have sorted my next upgrade for sure an got me active... Oh well that bargain is just round the corner...

Now this system would have blown away the 102 on VFM !!!

John
Shore

“As to the design of the 102, I was certainly not wrong in reporting my understanding. What I said was indeed my understanding, and I am verifying it to be so right here. I specifically said "my understanding" because my info was second hand, I've never seen the inside of a 102, and I'm not an engineer.”

Bloody hell Eric, with that sort of prose you must be a lawyer.

Anyway, you’ve highlighted something which causes no end of problems in everyday life, not just here in insignificant forum land. People who know little or nothing about a subject will, for whatever reason, fabricate some ‘new’ piece of info on the subject then pass it on as gospel. The recipient having been led up the garden path, will now pass on this ‘little known fact’ and pretty soon the pyramid effect goes into overdrive and the actual truth when told is shunned by the majority.


“I would be quite delighted to hear specifics of the design of the 102”


Good, I’ll do my best to enlighten you, provided I’m not banned in the process. I’ve nothing derogatory to say about the 102 (I own one after all), but I KNOW it can be made to perform way above its station with just a few easily implemented alterations.

Mr Tibbs

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Originally posted by Stallion:

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A few short months ago you were telling all and sundry how damaging it was to have any ferrous metals in the listening room, never mind supporting the hifi. Now you have gone all ferrous friendly, never missing an opportunity to tell us how it’s the best thing since Mulligans snuff.

Mr Tibbs

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Tibbsy, like I've already said to Herm, I really don't care whether people are "with me" or not. My point of view is based on the results of my experience listening to and experimenting with hi-fi equipment [especially Naim equipment] since 1982 - not to mention the myriad of musical genres both recorded and live I've heard during that period. Whether you or anyone else accepts it or not, I know I've learnt many things over the years that have enabled me to become a discerning listener.

Like everyone else, I've made mistakes along the way, but as long as you're able to admit your mistakes and LEARN from them and use the experience to your benefit, then you'll always make progress. My previous stance regarding the issue of ferrous metals [I still believe that minimising the amount of ferrous metals (Mana stands apart) in the listening room is important to achieving the best sound] and supports constructed from them, together with my (partial) departure from those beliefs is a case in point - as is my previous stance regarding mains blocks. I was vociferous in stating my beliefs because, at the time, I genuinely believed them to be true and I'll always share information that may be of interest to others.

The evidence that shows I've progressed is heard every day when I listen to my hi-fi system; the music has never sounded so good - and that, amigo, is all that really matters

"Oh, no offence meant like".

None taken.

Marco.

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Marco,

If you spoke less in conjecture and more in fact, I am absolutely sure your opinions would carry more weight. The fundamental flaw in your hifi reasoning is that you use CD as your main source. So when you start using a LP12/Aro/etc on loads of Mana (like me) you might be worth listening to. Souce First and all that you know. I have to say the same applies to deafboy James Mcspeake with his poxy ATC's with Paul 'bi sexual' Duerden as the human porting device - you all use inferior sources and its a struggle to take your views even remotely seriously.

best wishes and regards

Dev

Mr Duerden has an LP12. His Aro tonearm is the only bit of Naim kit he owns, iirc.

Also, I am strictly CD only myslf. Turntables are fiddly beasts that only sound decent with the very best pressings/recordings kept clean.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:
Also, I am strictly CD only myslf. Turntables are fiddly beasts that only sound decent with the very best pressings/recordings kept clean.

Regards,

Steve.

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Un-fu*king believable bollocks that proves beyond a shadow of doubt you are deaf or unable to disagree with your 50% Italian mentor.

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Un-fu*king believable bollocks that proves beyond a shadow of doubt you are deaf or unable to disagree with your 50% Italian mentor.

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I must be deaf then.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:

I must be deaf then.

Regards,

Steve.

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Steven please accept my apologies for ranting at you, but you know a CD player can not hold a candle to a decent LP spinner, don't you?

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Originally posted by Stallion:

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unable to disagree with your 50% Italian mentor.

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50% Italian?

Listen son, I'd stick to electronics and things you know something about if I were you.

Marco.

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Did I misrepresent you with the 50%? Sorry did not know you were a thoroughbred rather than being crossbred (should that be inbred? )

Son? Son? What ludicrous "over-lit pub" language you use.

hook, line and sinker...

And he's off!

Well it has been a while.

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
hook, line and sinker...

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Yep. I rather liked that.

"Most amusing indeed; if you possess an infantile mentality"

What you mean like the sort of person who might call another a "wank stain"?

Matthew

Marco,

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Every one here who owns a 102 (Herm, Mr Tibbs and you) are all agreed that the 102 is better than the 72.

Just the result you would expect

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Of course another plausible explanation is that these same people did a dem and bought the better preamp. Just a thought.

Joe

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I consider "wank stain" to be far more ruthlessly insulting

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could have fooled me.

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:
Mr Duerden has an LP12. His Aro tonearm is the only bit of Naim kit he owns, iirc.

Also, I am strictly CD only myslf. Turntables are fiddly beasts that only sound decent with the very best pressings/recordings kept clean.

Regards,

Steve.

_ It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard. _

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Oh shut up Steven, you're being pathetic again.

Stallion,

Have those older boys been egging you again on?

Matthew

PS If they ever "touch you" don't be frightened to tell a responsible adult as soon as possible.

"the great debate"

I don't think so.

malcolm

"Bloody hell Eric, with that sort of prose you must be a lawyer."

Tibbs, not a lawyer but ex-academic.

"Anyway, you've highlighted something which causes no end of problems in everyday life, not just here in insignificant forum land. People who know little or nothing about a subject will, for whatever reason, fabricate some new piece of
info on the subject then pass it on as gospel. The recipient having been led up the garden path, will now pass on this little known fact and pretty soon the pyramid effect goes into overdrive and the actual truth when told is shunned by the majority."

Tibbs, that is why I qualified my statement. What I said was precise--my understanding. If everyone distinguished between what they knew from their own firsthand knowledge, and what was second hand, then perhaps the problem you have outlined would be lessened.

The only other solution I can see coming out of your harangue is that people stop sharing what they know unless they are already expert. That doesn't make much sense to me.

I have been unable to come up with the source for my error (I only looked in two places--McBride pages and Listener review of 102) but I have had this understanding of the Naim hierarchy dating to the old forum:

62: basic 4 input
72: five input, time-aligned filter boards, circuit on daughter boards, phono cards regulated*, circuitry on one pcb except for phonos
102: six input, remote, line stage regulation
82: six input, remote, separate listen & record, mono function, can take 4 rails of power, more regulation than 102, less than 52
52: as above but much regulation, only powered by SC or 52PS depending on vintage

*based on Tibbs, this is in doubt

Anyway, it is the job of those who have information in a public forum to spread it. Could you give a brief answer as to how the 102 differs from the 72 aside from remote control and relaid circuit? Or is that it?

--Eric

PS, check http://www.swankradio.com/naimPrices.htm
for a list of Naim prices from October 2001 to July 24, 2002. You will see that the avg UK price for 102/psc/180 was (in dollars) about $2200 while a 72/hi/140 was about $1600, based on quite a few examples. In the US it was $1950 vs. $2650. Anyhoo, $600 is about 400 pounds difference, not 100 as you stated. And yes, prices on all of the above are down, due to new product intros and a faltering economy, and yes, the slightly more expensive gear (102/180 natch) has fallen a little more in this period. But that is naturally because it is harder to spare those few extra notes these days.

--Eri

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could have fooled me.

Wank stain

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That's simply because you accepted the fact long ago.

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no, burro, it's because I grew up long ago.

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"burro"?

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as in "voce e muito burro seu trocha"

Well Stallion, I suppose you can be forgiven for getting the score all wrong, seeing as you’re a horse.

“Eric, Tibbsy's just peeved because he knows that the difference between a 72 and a 102 doesn't amount to a hill of beans.”

I’ll try to explain a little about what’s different between the 72 / 102. Stallion, you might as well skip over this bit, have a read at your Beano or My little pony.

The audio circuit design in the 102 is very similar to the 72, it’s the circuit layout and in particular the improved star earth layout which helps make it sound better than a 72. Also, the fact that all the inputs are switched via high quality sealed relays that are mounted close to the input sockets pays further dividends in maintaining signal integrity. Naim designed the 102 after the 82 and 52, they point out that the 102 benefited from all the experience gained in designing those pre-amps. The 72 is basically a 32.5 with those ‘time aligned’ boards fitted. BTW, that ‘time aligned’ thing is just Naim’s fancy handle for what turns out to be an active low pass filter.
Stay tuned for some info on how to kid your 102 into thinking it’s an 82.

“The situation isn't helped by the fact he can't afford a 52”

Hey Stallion, throw down that nosebag and listen up. I don’t like to brag, but with what’s lying in my CURRENT account, I could buy a 52 tomorrow and still have enough left over to trade up my CDX to a CDS2. In a way I pity you, because no matter what you spend on your hifi, you’ll never be content with it.

“Could you give a brief answer as to how the 102 differs from the 72 aside from remote control and relaid circuit? Or is that it? –Eric”

Eric,
See above, but more to follow.


“Tibbs, that is why I qualified my statement. What I said was precise--my understanding.”

Hmmm, now I know I was wrong to suggest you are a lawyer. You say ex-academic, I say you should try your hand at politics.


“The only other solution I can see coming out of your harangue is that people stop sharing what they know unless they are already expert. That doesn't make much sense to me.”


It’s all in the way you present the information that counts, if you aren’t sure about its accuracy, then say so. That way, others can be encouraged to join in and hopefully collectively they can judge if true or false.

“Anyway, it is the job of those who have information in a public forum to spread it.”

What, even misinformation?


“PS, check http://www.swankradio.com/naimPrices.htm
for a list of Naim prices from October 2001 to July 24, 2002. You will see that the avg UK price for 102/psc/180 was (in dollars) about $2200 while a 72/hi/140 was about $1600, based on quite a few examples. In the US it was $1950 vs. $2650. Anyhoo, $600 is about 400 pounds difference, not 100 as you stated. And yes, prices on all of the above are down, due to new product intros and a faltering economy, and yes, the slightly more expensive gear (102/180 natch) has fallen a little more in this period. But that is naturally because it is harder to spare those few extra notes these days”


Frankly my dear, I just don’t give a damn.

Mr Tibbs

I am in a similar situation with my 32.5 / Hicap with bi-amped 250's. I'm not really any the wiser either. From what I can glean from this squabble the 102 appears to be a bit better than the 72 but does not represent such good VFM. I'll probably go for a 102, then Supercap, then 52.

Bob

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I am still the unwiser as to which is the better preamp. I need to replace my 32.5/HiCap in my triamped 250s.

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I am in a similar situation with my 32.5 / Hicap with bi-amped 250's. I'm not really any the wiser either. From what I can glean from this squabble the 102 appears to be a bit better than the 72 but does not represent such good VFM.

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Ness, Bob...

Should be pretty clear from the lack of unanimity that only a dem can sort out whether a 102 is better than a 72 for you. For some it obviously is; for others it obviously isn't.

But since you're both running active systems seems the sensible advise would be to upgrade to the best preamp and power supply you can afford, with the fewest steps to take you where you want to be (assuming your sources are up to it).

Joe

Well, I can say that if you have the money, the 72 is a no brainer. 350 is too much though unless it's only 2 years old. 300 is a fair price.

I have no experience of the 102, but as Tibbs has explained, it's basically a modernized 72 with remote. The consensus is that it's better than a 72, but it also seems that the bulk of the extra money is for the remote. And many say that it sounds harsh without an NAPSC. So you're looking at 650 for a 102/Napsc, maybe a little more for phono boards if you need them. Many here will testify it's worth it.

I would say what you get should be determined by two factors: how much you're willing to pay, and whether you want a remote.

--Eri

>>> Failing that, a disappearing act can easily be arranged for you.

Is that another threat? What with myself and SteveG you are certainly going to get around a bit. But of course I forgot the "clout" you have on these fora. Now I am scared, I might be banned from an internet forum ...