250 into NBL's does not go!

Richard,

FYI, the MicroGroove doesn't have Lithos regulation in it. It's simply an improved ISO and, if memory serves, is actually better than an ISO HR since it doesn't have the somewhat clinical edge of the ISO HR. The MicroGroove+ has Lithos regulation and is a big step up from the Microgroove. The Groove is superior to the Microgroove+ in that it was designed with Lithos regulation in mind from the ground up. I have been using a Groove since it came out and I can't imagine a vinyl life without it. I'll have to pop down to Salisbury one day and let you guys have a play, although it takes a while for it to warm up.

There is now a Groove+ which I haven't heard yet. The Groove can be upgraded to a Groove+ which is effectively a Groove with an extra external Lithos power supply. The story goes that the Groove+ achieves 127db s/n ratio! Tom's description of the Groove+ is in the main unprintable but ends with 'fantastic'. But you'd expect that wouldn't you?

None of these phono stages has subsonic filters, and with their huge bandwidth they can be expected to make amps work even harder than the Naim stages. This is why I suggested Blythe should use his second 250 in stereo mode, since a problem shared is a problem halved.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Ball:
_Vinyl Bass Extension_

Richard -

I have to disagree with this.


Obviously I'm not trying to provoke a stand war as you can guess what my recommendation might be in this regard.
-A-

---

Alan,

You will note the difference between bass extension and accurate bass extension as Richard describes, and I have to agree with him. LP12's and Bariks do a lot of bass, but a top end CD player does bass in a much more accurate and musical way. However, LP's win for me at the top end as they have generally more refinement.

Dev

ps. I hate to say it but your stands = no bass

Well Blythe, you do seem to have a few problems, not least of which is your taste in interior design! IMOP, the rosewood finish doesn't cut the mustard based on the photos posted, nor will any Hi-fi sound good with two occasional tables stuck in front of the speakers; the sofas seem awfully close and the left NBL looks right up against a corner unit; the NBL's need space at their sides too.
Assuming a good mains supply and the equipment on a decent rack, a pair of 135's will do the job nicely. On the previous Naim website, reccomendation system 4 was CDS2, 52, Supercap, 135's, NBL's. This was all the info I needed to make my purchase and I'm sure other's have done similar. The results are superlative. In addition, the volume control is rarely above the 9 o'clock position-the NBL's are quite efficient.
We look forward to some furniture rearrangements with the next set of photos.
Regards, Neil

Hi Alan,

all T/Ts are wall mounted apart from the Gorbe (just got back from a full service and update today - hooray!) which seems to prefer a high mass custom made stand with marble shelf on spikes. It isn't a stand issue, believe me...

I agree that vinyl can play great tunes in the bass but accurate it is not and ultimately extension is limited through cutting limitations and limitations of the vinyl medium itself. Even the finest engineers in the business such as Ken Wilkinson admitted that an awful lot of the very low bass information on the master tapes never made it's way onto the lacquer due to not only the technical difficulties of cutting it but also those of retrieving it at the user end. Anybody who owns the awful Kunzel 1812 on Telarc can attest that even when you can perform the near miracle of getting most (if not all) of it on vinyl, getting it off again can be a bit tricky....

For all that, vinyl still has that certain something...

Richard

Frank,

thanks for clarifying the details on the TE phono stages.

Looking forward to hearing a Groove+...

Richard

quote:

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Take a double-bass for example. The level of complexity to the sound is just impossible to fully reproduce using the current CD standard because it is unable to accurately reproduce all the harmonics mathamatically.

---

I think I disagree with you.

And LP is definitely of compromised potential in the bass end compared to CD, it's simple physics.

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by PR:
blythe

So I wonder what we did before CD. I wonder how quality clubs (disco techs) managed to play the sound so loud without closing down early due to amp stress.

It always come down to the equipment, not vinyl, CD or any other format for that matter. You don’t blame the road for the cars lack of performance, though it does have an impact.

---

They use Bryston amps hahaha!
When It comes down to real power AND sonic quality, There is only ONE name stands above all others unshaken: BRYSTON.

No, they use subsonic filters which cut off the very low frequencies.

- Jun

quote:

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Originally posted by Jun Keller:
No, they use subsonic filters which cut off the very low frequencies.

- Jun

---

I am not sure how low those frequencies are but when I was in my 20s I went to rock concerts that play very low and deep bass that you could feel the sound pressure vibrating your body. That must take a lot of amplification power. It sounds like I am trying to put down other HiFi lines but It is true that they do use Bryston amplification for concerts, filming, mixing in the studio labs that make Cds for us to play on our Naim system. So go figure! One of my friend who plays the piano quite well and he has Bryston and PMC speakers. He says to me that my system is great (all Naim) but it is HiFi system. His Bryston/PMC makes real sound and mine makes HiFi sound... and he knows how a piano sounds that is for sure. Well, I still like my Naim.

Hi Blythe,

Back to the matter at hand. I used to trip the thermal cutout on the 250 with my Epos 22s regularly both on CD and vinyl (actually more often on the former than the latter). Epos 22s really need a bit of grunt (certainly more than the Briks which have now replaced them), and Perth gets a lot warmer than the UK. The problem was solved by mounting a fan behind the 250, and then in a more elegant way by replacing the 250 with 135s. Never had a problem since, but the fans got a regular workout with the Epos 22s in place.
Now that I have put in the Briks, I've hardly heard the fans come on.
If I were you I'd a) biamp with the 2nd 250, and b) if you still have problems, add a fan until you go active and bypass the X-over entirely.
Cheers, Jens

quote:

---

very low and deep bass that you could feel the sound pressure vibrating your body.

---

Um, exactly what I get with rock through my NBLS

I've tripped the protection circuits on my single, passive 250 (driving briks) on several occasions. It's only been with rock recordings (Smashing Pumpkins-Mellon Collie, Alice In Chains-Unplugged)and at levels that were probably clipping the 250 (more than ten percent of the time I would think). Source was cd.

I guess this is a penalty we pay for the level of quality reproduction we get with Naim amps. Perhaps it's not possible to get the quality of reproduction *and* at these dangerously high sound levels...in other words, Naim R&D doesn't know how to design these amps to deliver the power required for these intense sound levels *while* maintaining their standard of reproduction. This isn't necesarily a shortcoming on Naim's part, more likely a limitation of technology. From what I've heard, no one else can do it either. Hell... no one else can even manage to get the Naim quality of reproduction (muchless sound quality *and* high-power) from what I've auditioned.


regards,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on FRIDAY 18 July 2003 at 04:23.]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Ball:
Take a double-bass for example. The level of complexity to the sound is just impossible to fully reproduce using the current CD standard because it is unable to accurately reproduce all the harmonics mathamatically.

---

Alan,

You come across as a really nice bloke, but you are talking rubbish.

Sorry there's not point in debating this with you since it will just end up as 'well since I isolated my TT more and more it got better'.

Well let me tell you something, I isolated my TT more (using what you are using) and it got worse, so go figure.

Dev

ps. I have kept some of your brand of "isolation" at my place I can demonstrate the effect.

I Love my TT so much I put it the garage every night

Mad Boy Matt

Naim R&D doesn't know how to design these amps to deliver the power required for these intense sound levels *while* maintaining their standard of reproduction

...And the 500...???

quote:

---

Originally posted by dave simpson:
Perhaps it's not possible to get the quality of reproduction *and* at these dangerously high sound levels...in other words, Naim R&D doesn't know how to design these amps to deliver the power required for these intense sound levels *while* maintaining their standard of reproduction. This isn't necesarily a shortcoming on Naim's part, more likely a limitation of technology.

---

Dave,

it is a design principle of Naim power amps that they do not use paralleled output transistors.

The NAP500 makes use of newly available transistors which have a higher output, but the principle remains.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Ball:
_Slightly Back On Topic_

Blythe originally posted about how his 250 just couldn't run his NBL's at high volumes without going into meltdown. I don't think he was looking forward to having to shell out on a huge amp upgrade.

When I got my Briks not so long ago I managed to trip my 135's a few times in the first week playing at similar volumes. And yes, the usual solution is buy a bigger amp or go active. I could buy a Nap500 but it isn't solving the problem. And I've concluded that is -

vibration = distortion = overactive drivers = hard work = heat = _POP!_

Vinyl can terrible for LF distortion. But we've all pretty much agreed on this I think. But I also think that this has led to the general view that a CD is more accurate in the lower frequencies because with vinyl the detail is usually well masked in the distortion.

But probably the most important thing is that, since taking a step back, looking at what was happening and sorting out the vibration first I've not had any problems with the 135's going supernova on me. In fact, I switched my LP12 onto my higher Mana stack (P2 > P6) and really gave it some stick tonight. My 135's are not even that warm.

I also played a few things like "John Martyn - Solid Air" and "Rickie Lee Jones - s/t". Both of these having excellent double-bass scattered throughout. I've also got these on CD and there is no way my CDS2 is that subtle and delicate with the bass. It really is a lovely sound on vinyl. I know what a double bass sounds like and I even saw Danny Thompson earlier this year playing with Richard Thompson. To me, vinyl is just so much more rich, textured and complete a sound. But perhaps it's just me ?? Ah.. who cares ? It's an alternative solution and one that has worked for me.

-A-

Dev - I am a really nice bloke and also I really like how my system sounds.. it's mysteriously got very good of late and to me, that's all that matters.

---

... and you are not alone: The vinyl sound is quite magical. Few years past, I was in one of the biggest HiFi shop in Toronto: Bay&Bloor Radio and was so drawn into a Rega setup: P9, all Rega amplification powering a pair of high end Royd. It was far better than the CDX/52/250 in the next room. I stood with other people to listen till the end of that classical piece. It was moving, emotional, rhythmic, very very analog and very very good. Well I dont know how to operate, selecting turn table, I buy the CD player but always remember that day. It was the Rega that won the demo.

...And the 500...???

Still doesn't supply enough power for some ;-)

regards,

dave

P.S. I'm not one of those folks--I'd like to maintain my hearing;-)

quote:

---

Originally posted by N. Mason:
Well Blythe, you do seem to have a few problems, not least of which is your taste in interior design! IMOP, the rosewood finish doesn't cut the mustard based on the photos posted, nor will any Hi-fi sound good with two occasional tables stuck in front of the speakers; the sofas seem awfully close and the left NBL looks right up against a corner unit; the NBL's need space at their sides too.
Assuming a good mains supply and the equipment on a decent rack, a pair of 135's will do the job nicely. On the previous Naim website, reccomendation system 4 was CDS2, 52, Supercap, 135's, NBL's. This was all the info I needed to make my purchase and I'm sure other's have done similar. The results are superlative. In addition, the volume control is rarely above the 9 o'clock position-the NBL's are quite efficient.
We look forward to some furniture rearrangements with the next set of photos.
Regards, Neil

---

I live in my home, NOT my Hi Fi.
I will not rearrange everything just to get "the perfect" position of speakers etc.
Rosewood matches perfectly the other wood finishes in the room, the bulk of which are not visible in the photo's posted.
The "occasional" tables are in fact either side of the NBL's, NOT in front of them. They also serve to detract from the NBL's themselves, making them less obvious.
The sofas are a couple of feet back and do not "block" line of hearing to the drivers.
The "corner unit" as per my previous postings is a Gents Press that houses all of my elctronics, all actually hanging off wall brackets - non of which show ANY vibration at ANY volume. Good isolation and a good compromise.
I'd guess you're probably the kind of person that would like a 52" television to "show off" in your 12'x12' sitting room.
I love to hear my music but love a good, traditionally styled room, not ruined by hi-tech 21st Century furnishings.
I closing, I'd say that the 250 drives the NBL's admirably, but not at extremely high volumes, so if that's your cup of tea, look at another of Naim's options.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

[This message was edited by blythe on SUNDAY 20 July 2003 at 20:13.]

[This message was edited by blythe on SUNDAY 20 July 2003 at 20:15.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jens:
Hi Blythe,

Back to the matter at hand. I used to trip the thermal cutout on the 250 with my Epos 22s regularly both on CD and vinyl (actually more often on the former than the latter). Epos 22s really need a bit of grunt (certainly more than the Briks which have now replaced them), and Perth gets a lot warmer than the UK. The problem was solved by mounting a fan behind the 250, and then in a more elegant way by replacing the 250 with 135s. Never had a problem since, but the fans got a regular workout with the Epos 22s in place.
Now that I have put in the Briks, I've hardly heard the fans come on.
If I were you I'd a) biamp with the 2nd 250, and b) if you still have problems, add a fan until you go active and bypass the X-over entirely.
Cheers, Jens

---

Thanks Jens for a truly useful and constructive post :-)
I will try bi-amping (have spoken already to my dealer) until I am in a position to upgrade. I will also listen at more sensible levels until then :-)

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

Blythe

Sorry about the late reply, but thanks for the images... really nice... absolutely gorgeous. First roses I've seen on an NBL.

Enjoy the music.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Regards

Philip

naimniac for life

quote:

---

Needless to say, I have never got my old 180 to anything more than warm to the touch

---

FWIW at any given power level a NAP250 will run hotter than a NAP180, this is a consequence of the regulated power supplies.

There are enough variables of speaker sensitivity, room size, room furnishing, ventilation and personal taste in loudness that it is quite possible for one person to be having trouble keeping a NAP250 running while another's barely gets warm, and neither are playing at dangerous levels. This is probably why Naim invented the NAP135 (and of course to make some money...)

Paul

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philip Pang:
Blythe

Sorry about the late reply, but thanks for the images... really nice... absolutely gorgeous. First roses I've seen on an NBL.

Enjoy the music.

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Regards

Philip

naimniac for life

---

You're welcome,
I'm pleased someone appreciates my extremely fine taste in interior decor.
I am enjoying the music, just being careful to listen at more sensible levels :-)

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

Don't get too carried away Blythe I think Mr Pang's positive comments are with referce to the Nbl's rosewood finish & aesthetic appeal........not the ..um ...er decor?

Mad Boy Matt

Seriously though, Blythe ....................

You done the 3* 250 dem yet???


from an impatient bugger

Mad Boy Matt