Which "Olive to New" upgrade?

sound like a new nightmare just started all over again....

mike, i will let you know about i get on with the 252 upgrade when i have it, probably in the next few weeks.

i hope also to have the chance to compare 135's and 252MkII's. i am also hearing claims such as 250MkII being better than 2x135's. given what i know of the 135's, this is some claim.. we'll see...

i sense you will upgrade sooner than you think. such is compulsive (even addictive) nature of this hobby of ours...

enjoy

ken

I doubt if many of us have systems that sound better than than we expect them to, especially three years after their last major upgrade.

In view of this, I wonder if it would make sense to start a special hi-fi fund instead? Every time you feel tempted to upgrade when you don't actually need to you could make another deposit. Eventually, when you do need to upgrade you'll probably have enough to buy one or more of CDS3, 552 or 500 and have the ability to quash any qualms you may have about spending so much on hi-fi by reminding yourself how virtuous you've been in not making unnecessary upgrades for the last few years.

Well, that's what I think would suit my own psychology in your circumstances...

Go for the 252 before the amp. You use to tell us about source first so the pre or the cdp is to concider.

/Erik

Mike, what is the:

"Mana double-glass trick under my CDS2"?

I have an extra glass shelf. What about the two rubber strips? How does the second peice of glass sit?

I have 4 20amp dedicated lines with a common ground and wiring bases on 30amps. With four it's very easy to test impact of using 3, 2 or 1 line. If you are only using 2 jumping upto 4 is well worth while and quite cheap.

I have also found source changes to be the most satisfying and it usually is the issue thats pushing me to upgrade. Explore the CDS3 and XPS2 possibility. I understand the 252 is worthwhile but the 135s->250 is more subjective with gains and losses.

John

Thanks for the replies so far!

Tuan, I'm really quite relaxed about this whole thing, and my undies won't be getting into a bind.

Ken C, I anticipate your report. When I get a chance to compare 2*135 to new-250 myself, I'll certainly post my own impressions.

JeremyD, I was actually mulling about that comment of mine just now (regarding how good you expect your system to sound). I realized that my office system sounds almost exactly at the level a "good" stereo should sound. It's comprised of a Meridian 200+263ΔΣ, NAC102, 2*SNAPS2 (dual-railed, one acting as NAPSC), NAP110, and Royd Merlins. Back when I was using a Cambridge CD6 and only one SNAPS2 (i.e. no NAPSC for the 102), it didn't make the grade. For those of you who are interested, I would probably rank the Meridian combo somewhere between 3.5/Hi and a CDX. (It's not quite as good as the 3.5/Hi with PRaT, but it's as good or better than the CDX with sonic realism.) Considering the ridiculously cheap price, it was worthwhile upgrade for my office system, which doesn't need to boogie so hard while playing background music.

Erik, I would have to cautiously weigh the benefits of upgrading to a 252, as it's a big chunk of money. I already feel guilty quite often regarding my system's cost, and it's crucial that any further upgrade does not increase that sensation. (As it is, I occasionally consider subscribing to the recently popular downgrading philosophy.)

John, you need an extra piece of Mana glass, with the strips. You place this on top of the existing piece, strips down. It adds a nice sense of solidity to the presentation. It can be overwhelming, though, depending on the rest of your system and setup, so don't assume that it will be better. (I actually didn't like it the first time that I tried it, but the second trial a few months later convinced me, and I've been running with it every since.)

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Greetings Mike,
If you do a search under me, I have done a few of the upgrades you are considering. The best advice I can give you is to try them in your room and your system. As I recall, you have a really small room and listen in the nearfield. You also use Royd speakers which are great but do bass very differently to a pair of SBLs for example. I would also not rule out getting rid of your Mana stands, but the controlling effect they have on your speakers and room (especially in the bass) is probably giving you a good balance right now. You need to try before you decide, it is hard to predict what will happen in your room.

Dev

Mike,

There is a buddist saying that states "If you are not happy with what you have, why want more"? This is not exactly you, as you seem happy with what you have, but you may be on the edge of the slippery slope. You know that one little black box all on it's ownsome is going to be calling out for some company of it's own kind. Soon the one interloper will form a ghetto, then all the olives will be driven out. I say this because the new stuff is soooooo good, clarity and depth and detail and musical flow like never before. I'm sure you would like them all. I just keep thinking that if you ARE happy with your system then why change? Why upset the expensive apple cart? Why not just continue to enjoy what you have, be contented, take in your surroundings. The olive boxes still have musicality in spades and you have a system that you could enjoy for years to come. However, if you do decide to change I can recommend all of your possible upgrades apart from the sxps burndy as you will get one when you get an xps2. On the other hand you could just get that and keep all the olive boxes so nothing would look out of place. You know there is a inevitability about our hobby, but whatever you do just remember to enjoy.

Sean.

Hello Sean,

That was all very Zen! I hope you had a nice x-mas an hope to speak with you in the New Year!

Dev

Mike

I can't offer much experience with the new kit but feel I ought to put a vote in the zen camp. I used to be happy with an LP12/Nait/kans and I'm happy with what I've got now. The path between those two states was worth travelling but I needed to keep moving to stay happy. Sometimes it's good to settle down.

Do you understand your own motives for wanting a change? It may simply be a desire for experimentation and tweakery (nothing wrong with this, it's fun). If so, have you done all you can with setup and the room? If you haven't done it already, an empty shelf under your 52 is very worthwhile for example.

Regards
Steve

First a comment: I was reconsidering my early report that I felt my office system sounded, "as good as I expected". However, with Meridian200-263/102/2*SNAPS2/110/RoydMerlin, it shouldn't be as good as my earlier system, 3.5/Hi/102/Flat/NAPSC/140/RoydAlbion, which I said I dissatisfied with at the time. When you add a few other factors, it makes more sense.

My old system was in my apartment living room, a 19x19ft (6x6m) concrete affair, with a 9x9ft (3x3m) kitchen in one corner, and glass windows all along one side. The mains were atrocious, and I usually sat about 10ft (3m) back from the speakers. This was the probably a key reason for my dissatisfaction.

In sharp contrast, my office isn't square, the power is pretty good (although not on dedicated mains like my main system), and I sit in a near-field monitoring configuration (about 4ft/1m away from my speakers). Considering how much Naim systems like good power, and how they often display their troubles at higher volumes (uncommon in my office), my earlier comments make more sense.

Also, I do think the Meridian combo is better than a 3.5/Hi, and there's one thing in particular that it does really well: "presence". I find this can make up for many other shortcomings. As I just mentioned in another thread, in this area it might even be as good as or better than a CDX/XPS.

James, I'm not too concerned about upgraditis. When one or more of the boxes is only middling, then upgrading one of them might expose the others' deficits. However, I don't consider my existing components to have problems (at least not painful ones). Also, I was auditioning the RR3 for a couple of months earlier this year. Even though they were able to resolve the output much better, then didn't point out flaws upstream. It was just more pleasure and less pain. That's why I don't think upgrading would cause a chain reaction. Besides, I'm not willing to spend the type of money, and the resulting pain that I anticipate from that behavior will heartily dissuade me from venturing too far in that direction.

Dev, thanks for the feedback. I certainly realize that fine-tuning and system balance have much to do with getting things "right". That's why my initial trials of the double Mana glass were negative, resulting in an overly bloated presentation. Sometime after the first trial, I changed the speaker cables to the Ecosse "Z" plug, which tightened things up nicely. Then the double glass worked much better. I'm also not planning to upgrade a bunch of things, initially making it "better and worse", and eventually getting it back to an even keel. Instead, I'm going to try a number of options carefully, and see which one upgrade makes things better, and then that's it. As I've mentioned a number of times, I'm not willing to spend money on it like I did before.

Sean, thanks for the insight. Coincidentally, my wife just gave me a Buddhist calendar for Xmas. As I glanced through some of the sayings, I realize how I could NEVER be a Buddhist. None of the philosophies seem intuitively correct to me. They're interesting ideas, and can be intriguing fodder for the mind, but they don't represent an ideology to which I could comfortably aspire. That having been said, your comments spoke to the commendable credo of, "if it isn't broke, then don't fix it." That certainly is a consideration, which is why any upgrade I do will be with great caution, careful consideration, and sufficient auditioning in my own environment. With regards to the olive versus new look, the aesthetics are unimportant to me, with all of my gear hidden in the closet.

bambam, I'm not sure why I hadn't considered adding Sound Stages. I'll have to add that option to my list. There's one problem though: it's rather difficult to test it, as I don't know whether my auditory memory is cable of recognizing that type of difference over the time required to add a couple of Sound Stages. With my gear in a closet, its not as simple as jacking up the stand and slipping them in. It's more likely to take a few hours to do the switch, after which time I won't be able to objectively determine whether there's enough difference to warrant the cost.

There is one change I am considering, though. I've currently got a Sound Frame on top of each of the two racks. One holds my turntable, which I rarely use and don't care much how good that sounds (as vinyl is just a lark for me). I'm considering putting both Sound Frames under my 3-tier rack, boosting the CDS2 from phase 5 to 6, the 52 and Creek T43 from 4 to 6, and the turntable from 4 to 3. I'm not certain, though, that the smaller boards will be big enough to hold a rack. And again, it's lots of effort to make the switch. (Hell, it's bloody difficult to swap out the XPS!)

Regarding your reply to Dev, his comments can be especially useful, as he's done the types of upgrades that I'm considering, so is familiar with the differences. Ultimately, I take everyone's input with a grain of salt.

Steve, the kan man, although I haven't mentioned this yet, one of the reasons that I want to change is that I see the older gear steadily dropping in price on the used market. If I swap now, I have a chance to "lock in" some of that value. This is not a huge concern for me, but it's certainly part of the equation. (I realize that the inherent value of the system to me is relatively fixed, as long as I love well-reproduced music.) Beyond that, it's really just a matter of, "If it can sound better without a significant downside, then why not do it?"

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike,

Well over half the stuff I listen to on my mid-level system is really moving, so any change will be relatively mnor. I haven't upgraded in 2.5 years, but if I win a Lotto jackpot, I'm likely to get a 'geddon, CDS3, 552, and 500.

I think the critical factor for you is budget - there are lots of ways to improve your system, but you can't really narrow your choices down unless you decide how much you want to spend.

If there were some aspect of the sound that you'd like to improve, you could change the question to, 'What are the ways I could improve this aspect?'

Since you're happy with what you hear now, it seems to me budget is the key.

But aren't you expecting a kid? Better spend it now....:-)

Happy hunting!

Phil

Phil, yes I'm expecting a baby on Feb 2nd, and as a consequence, my budget is zero. However, if I have to go a "little" over budget to get a big improvement in sound, then that would be OK. It's a pain versus pleasure thing: as long as the pocketbook feels little or no pain, while the ears hear as much or more pleasure, then I'm happy with the outcome.

Alex, thanks for the report on XPS-XPS2. I find the "exciting" thing interesting. When I heard the XPS and XPS2 with the CDX, I felt that the distortion level was much lower with the XPS2, but it almost seemed like the old XPS could boogie a bit more. This was a very marginal thing, though, and somewhat eclipsed by the improved sonics. I was the only one of five listeners who felt this way, though. Ultimately, it could have been one of those situations where "the clarity improved so much, that the small improvement in the boogie-factor was perceived as a relative reduction." I believe that this is what happens when people compare a 72 to a 102, and they perceive that the 72 has more PRaT; they're wrong, but it's easy to be tricked in this way.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

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Originally posted by bambam:
Dev, old chap, what does one make of the advice of a person who, for the past 5 years, keeps changing his mind/system every few months? It's quite something that you feel confident in any attempt to persuade others. Tried Audio Note yet?

BAM BAM

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Dear Wam Bam Hows Your Man!

Just to correct you, and starting from the back. I have had my SBLs since 1995, my 135s from 1994 to 2003, the 52 since 1997, the Nat 01 since 1995, the CDS2 since 1998 (and before that a CDS1 & CDi). The only things that I have upgraded are stands and I have tried different turntables & cartridges.

No, I haven't tried Audio Note, although I heard a Ongaku (sp?) once. Have you?

festive greetings,
Dev

Mike!

If You have the possibility and guts to be openminded, try FRAIM. Even if it´s just the CD-player, You will immideately hear what the stands do and don´t. I was convinced after two bars. Then I lived with Fraim and m**a phase a lot side by side and I never want to go back. I´m NOT trying to get this to a tread about stands, but try it if You haven´t. Maby not a cheap one even if my Fraims costs less than the other one.

/Erik

Erik, I've heard Fraimed systems many times now (setup by two different individuals who both know their stuff). Let's just say that I think it softens the presentation too much for my liking. I prefer the honest, forthright approach of Mana. When you add to this the requirement that the stand(s) fit into my closet, the Fraim is out of the question. (It's also far more money that I'm willing to spend.)

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Fair enough even if You almost trig me by using the word "honest"
Then go for the XPS2/s-burndy.

/Erik