Session muscians

quote:

Originally posted by Jonn:

Is this always the case with session players -technically good but with no passion or empathy?

Guess it depends on the artist, producer and a lot more.

Steely Dan became the ultimate session musician band and Becker and Fagen produced some great classics such as Aja and Gaucho with session musicians.

That said some of the players on the Steely Dan albums were top jazz musicians doing sessions and not just your regular 'read the score and play' session guys.

It also has Gadd, Porcaro and Marotta on drums, who are session men, but of quite a different league.

It isn't necessarily the case, but session musicians can sometimes offer more technique and less feel. An example for me might be Daryl Stuermer replacing Steve Hackett in Genesis, then again I don't think he has the technique of Hackett anyway. I would also say the same to a lesser extent for Chester Thompson, but I know Munch will kill me for that.

Some band musicians do sessions, and give their distinctive style, Belew and Fripp have both made some great contributions to other artists albums.

There are exceptions, I remember a sessions sax player taking George Michael to court for the playing that was very distinctive on one of his tracks - other may know far more than me about this.

It might be more down to the producer not giving the right direction to the players, but in broad terms you have a point as session players are there to either give their style on cue, and just reproduce what is given to them, so they do not have the investment and background that a band musician would have.

And let's not forget Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones and Rick Wakeman were amongst many who started out as session musicians.
Regards,
Steve.

Jonn,

I have found the list of musicians credited for The Sea, here.

Corrine shares the production with three other people and approx 60 musicians. It suggests a lack of clarity from Corrine or other production influences to create a particular sound. If the drums are too prominent in the mix, then I would question the Engineer. It's all part of the learning process. If an intimate recording was her next release, a home studio job is the way to go. There are plenty of success stories for home recordings, but it is sad that studios are in decline.

Denis

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
I dont know what you would class as a session muscian these days??
Here is one of the best.

Tim Renwick.
He is on so many great albums and has toured the world with some of the all time greats.Pink Floyd is one.
He can also go to the shops any day of the week and not get bothered by paps and people.
He has the best of both worlds imo.

And a very nice guy to boot.
Stu

Munch,

As soon as I read the title of this thread I thought of Tim Renwick and I agree with every word of your post. I saw him with Al Stewart a couple of times giving so much to the music but taking so little of the lime light.

Another publicity shy and fabulous session musician is Pino Palladino. Some of his performance credits are here.

Examples -> PSP - Pete Townshend - Fink - John Mayor Trio

"Is this always the case with session players -technically good but with no passion or empathy?"

I think we can all come up with some excellent session musicians, but generally IMO there is nothing like a well rehearsed and working band.

Often a great band is greater than the sum of its parts. I remember the Captain Beefheart tour in the mid 70's that was made up of session musicians, and the performances were recognisable and accomplished, but soulless and dispiriting. But look at how hard the Magic Band worked to achieve something like Trout Mask or Decals. I'm sure others can think of more examples.

I've lost count of how many different arists' recordings Danny Thompson has graced over the years, but everytime I've seen him live with Richard Thompson in either a band format or just RT and DT, he's nothing short of magical.

.

In addition to his solo work and time spent as a Pretender, Robbie McIntosh has a solid history as a session/backup guy (Aynsley Lister, Kevin Ayers, Boyzone, Cher, Diane Tell, Eric Bibb, George Martin, Gordon Haskell, Heather Small, Chuck Berry, Joe Cocker, John Mayer, Kirsty McColl, Luz Casal, Mike and The Mechanics, Nine Below Zero, Paul Carrack, Paul McCartney, Paul Young, Mark Knopfler, Roger Daltrey, Russell Watson, Mark Hollis, Talk Talk, Tasmin Archer, Tears for Fears, Eros Ramazzotti, Thea Gilmore, Tina Arena, Tori Amos, Vin Garbutt, Norah Jones). In my opinion, his playing is anything but passionless.

Tim Pierce is another session guitarist who never fails to make me go "whoa".

'Graham none of my list have ever played with out Passion and empathy"

You know, as soon as I made that post I thought about all the great jazz records (Monk, Parker etc) that have been made by groups that have hardly played together before!

One of my favourite Danny Thompson records is with a Spanish group called Ketama, an LP called Songhai. I used to use it as a dem record for myself setting up systems. And his work with the likes of John Renbourn is great as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonn:

Is this always the case with session players - technically good but with no passion or empathy?

Unequivocally not the case at all. There's absolutely nothing inherent in being a session musician that results in a lack of passion/empathy/soul. The greatest session musicians are called over and over again because they provide consummate execution quickly and efficiently, complete with passion/empathy/soul.

It's a common and persistent misconception that "session musicians" lack passion/empathy/soul ... in my decades-long experience in the recording industry, I have never found that to be the case. In fact, the musicians who lack passion/empathy/soul don't get called back, and you'd likely never hear them. On occasion, a musician might sound like they're "phoning in" a performance, but this is most likely to occur when there's nothing in the music to inspire passion/empathy/soul.

In my experience, most people who harbor this misconception often don't even know when they're listening to session musicians, and just as often don't understand the nature of the recording process, the role of session musicians, producers, etc.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
In fact, the musicians who lack passion/empathy/soul don't get called back, and you'd likely never hear them.

Not that I disagree with you, but it doesn't explain how Waddy Wachtel ended up on so many albums. It's always been a mystery to me.

'Astral Weeks' was made over two days with session musicians who knew nothing of Van Morrison or his music. Yet the musical inventiveness displayed there is unmatched.

quote:

Originally posted by jayd:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
In fact, the musicians who lack passion/empathy/soul don't get called back, and you'd likely never hear them.

Not that I disagree with you, but it doesn't explain how Waddy Wachtel ended up on so many albums. It's always been a mystery to me.

I like Waddy's playing, not lacking for passion/empathy/soul to my ears. But more to the point, not lacking in that regard to the ears of everyone who hires him, as they've been doing for decades.

Not that this means you should like his playing, of course, but even if you don't, does he really sound flat and perfunctory to you?

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by jayd:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
In fact, the musicians who lack passion/empathy/soul don't get called back, and you'd likely never hear them.

Not that I disagree with you, but it doesn't explain how Waddy Wachtel ended up on so many albums. It's always been a mystery to me.

I like Waddy's playing, not lacking for passion/empathy/soul to my ears. But more to the point, not lacking in that regard to the ears of everyone who hires him, as they've been doing for decades.

Not that this means you should like his playing, of course, but even if you don't, does he really sound flat and perfunctory to you?

With you on this one Fred.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

I like Waddy's playing, not lacking for passion/empathy/soul to my ears. But more to the point, not lacking in that regard to the ears of everyone who hires him, as they've been doing for decades.

Not that this means you should like his playing, of course, but even if you don't, does he really sound flat and perfunctory to you?

I've probably listened to - how many? 50 or more, surely? - albums he's played on, many of them multiple times. I've even seen him in concert supporting several big name acts.

Sitting here just now, I can't remember a single note of any solo he contributed.

Maybe that's why the big names hire him - he provides "guitar solo goes here" without in any way distracting the listener's attention away from what the star is doing.

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
'Astral Weeks' was made over two days with session musicians who knew nothing of Van Morrison or his music. Yet the musical inventiveness displayed there is unmatched.

Totally agree. Both the producer and muscians had a strong background in jazz which shows. Apparently there were no lead sheets - Van played the songs on his guitar and told them to play what they felt, hence the inventiveness.

Thank you, Jonn. It would be great if people here were to go off and listen to that music. I shall go and do that myself now...

In reverse.

There are a lot of 'Chart Toppers' that are "dobbie do'd" along to because of riffs invented by the attending session musicians that would otherwise have languished a lot lower down the charts IMO.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

In reverse.

There are a lot of 'Chart Toppers' that are "dobbie do'd" along to because of riffs invented by the attending session musicians that would otherwise have languished a lot lower down the charts IMO.

Geoff

Absolutely! Happens far more often than most people know.

If you ever get to see the documentary Standing In The Shadows Of Motown about The Funk Brothers, the Motown session musicians, you'll see and hear just how significant a contribution session musicians made, very often coming up with the actual hooks.

And of course, when session musicians do this, they all get their fair share of the songwriting royalties ... NOT!

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Another great is Andy Fairweather Low.
Again over the years he has played with some greats on tour and in the studio.
Just buy the roger Waters in the Flesh DVD to SEE PASSION AND FUN.
Graham none of my list have ever played with out Passion and empathy.
Stu

I'll second that. There are many Clapton albums and live performances where he is responsible for all the great guitar licks and solos.

As for the 'fun' part, I suppose that comes out naturally as he is quite the comedian with a really quirky sense of humour.

Michael Brecker and Larry Carlton were also session musicians, in addition to having successful solo careers, but no one will ever accuse them of not having passion or sounding cold on a recording. They are arguably the greatest jazz musicians on their instruments for their generation.

....I guess Tamla Motown and Stax (to name but 2 labels) basically relied on a stellar bunch of sessioneers .....I don't think "soul" was missing from their recordings!

quote:

Originally posted by Jet Johnson:

....I guess Tamla Motown and Stax (to name but 2 labels) basically relied on a stellar bunch of sessioneers .....I don't think "soul" was missing from their recordings!

Exactly! I mentioned the Funk Brothers (Motown) earlier, but Stax is an even better example as its house band was none other than Booker T and the MGs,with Booker T, Duck Dunn, Steve Cropper, and Al Jackson, Jr., recording tracks for all those great Wilson Pickett, Sam and Dave, Carla and Rufus Thomas, and Otis Redding songs. Not only is the issue of whether or not they played with soul preposterous, they helped to define soul.

Forumites, I give you the rhythm section from heaven:

The amazing Carol Kaye, First Lady of Bass.



Here's a list of her bass credits, a few highlights being playing for Sinatra, The Beach Boys, The Supremes, David Axelrod, Love (Forever Changes no less), Buffalo Springfield the list is endless and gob-smacking...

She also played guitar for Sonny & Cher, The Righteous Brothers, The Beach Boys, Jan & Dean and on Zappa's Absolutely free and Freak Out albums (!)

And one of favourite drummers, Earl Palmer



He was Little Richard's drummer in the late 50's and played for Sinatra, Ike & Tina Turner (River Deep Mountain High), Cannonball Adderley, Tim Buckley, The Mamas & The Papas. The Monkees, The Beach Boys (presumably when Hal Blaine wasn't available!), Tom Waits and so on...but if you want a perfect representation of how wonderful this man's playing was, listen to either of David Axelrod's Songs Of Innocence and Songs Of Experience albums. Utterly wonderful drumming.