HiFi in cabinet can it be good?

Pop into Acoustica on the Hoole Road next to the Beehive pub and hear a couple of racks...

Quadraspire bog standard versus Quadraspire Reference and Fraim would be good for starters.

Then come back and tell us what a difference they don't make.

Then you may wish to try Mana.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

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I really do take offence to these sort of prices being charged for something that has a material cost of.. what 2% of the retail price perhaps

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like a 552 or 500 for example? Perhaps the pc you typed your last post on. How about the clothes that you're wearing... Face it, most raw materials are cheap - it's time and knowing what to do with them that counts.

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Until then I'm happy with what I am building. Current cost is about £80 for MDF, Oak and aluminium foil for RFI shielding... and it has 6 shelves !

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and what about your time, or do you not value that?

[This message was edited by John Sheridan on WEDNESDAY 19 June 2002 at 14:31.]

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Some products can justify high price tags. I am sure that the 552/500 have cost a significant amount in R&D and this cost has to be recovered in the pricing of the unit.. Plus at £10k+ each they are not going to be selling like hot cakes.
But £500 for 4 sheets of laminated MDF and some aluminium poles ? I'm drawing the line here.

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So there is no R&D involved in making a stand? There's no costs to be recovered?

Why is it somehow worse paying £500 for some mdf & poles worth £50 than £12000 for some electrical bits worth the same amount, or £50 for a shirt that came out of the factory for £1?

So let us know how many hours have you put into your stand so far so we can get a true idea of the cost of your stand.

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IMHO Mana is very good value for money.

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Dozy, I'm sure Alan's about to tell you he can buy a chunk of iron and a piece of glass for only £10.

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Anyway.. I couldn't tell the difference when I heard the Quadraspires..

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Tell us about your dem, what equipment was used, and what music was played.

I have describe my dem at the other branch of Acoustica a number of times and there was a big difference to my ears, but it depended on the equipment being used and the hierarchy of source - amp - speakers.

As for needing some kind of scientific proof that a stand makes a difference, I couldn't care less.

Using your ears is all that counts.

Moreover, even in the face of scientific proof of a sonic difference, if I didn't hear it with my own ears, I wouldn't buy it.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

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But it's not like I can turn my time into money (outside of normal working hours) so it's kind of irrelevant. In fact, a 6 shelf Quadraspire Reference would of almost worked out cheaper based on my hourly rate but that is not the point !

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actually, that is the point. It's cheaper to go and buy one, especially if you have better things to do than f*cking around trying to build a stand.

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It's not the time/effort factor I'm unhappy about. In fact, I'm not unhappy at all.. I'm just not spending that amount of money on a manufactured rack. I'd rather build my own and spend the extra money on more music.. or beer..

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except that you've already cost yourself £80 and 10 hours. Seriously, if you don't think a stand does anything except keep your gear off the floor then why didn't you just buy an ikea rack for less than the £80 you've already spent?

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The fundamental gripe I have is that these racks are very basic, have low material cost, could be replicated cheaply, have little/no scientific basis behind them yet they are priced at a premium.

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are you sure about that? Why aren't there lots of imitators then? I have an idea, why don't you go into business making hi-fi racks at an affordable price? There's obviously a fortune to be made there.

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That is why I am sceptical about them. And looking at all these manufactured racks, they all have a different approach. Coupled, de-coupled, low mass, high mass, natural materials, glass, steel etc etc.. Are they all right in their approach ? Do they all work ? Or is it all a tribute to good marketing and bullshit ?

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to some extent they all work. Whether you like what they do is another thing.

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Computers are slightly different because they can be assembled at home out of the components to produce superior PC for less money.

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yeh, but try making your own motherboard or cpu - they both have a material cost of near enough to nothing.

They do make a difference but whether they are worth the outlay is up to the individual. I think the material value is generally very low so you pays your money etc. I have a fraim and it is very good and the material value is higher than most but some have better things to do than worry about whether one rack sound better than another.

John,

it is also possible Alan likes to spend his time building his rack. Lots of men DIY in their spare time, and enjoy looking at the result afterwards.

Herman

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Why aren't there lots of imitators then? I have an idea, why don't you go into business making hi-fi racks at an affordable price? There's obviously a fortune to be made there.

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There's no fortune because the very great majority of people who have a hifi won't spend thousands on wobbly assemblies of MDF and aluminium tubing.

You only have to wonder round the stand vendors and cable vendors at a hifi show to smell the 99%bull.

Paul

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Easy John, I can hear the blood vessels popping from here.. You don't work for a rack manufacturer do you ?

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No, I just hate seeing comments along the lines of "it's a ripoff, I can make it myself for less" when it's quite obvious that you can't.

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it is also possible Alan likes to spend his time building his rack. Lots of men DIY in their spare time, and enjoy looking at the result afterwards.

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Herm, given what Alan has said, this is probably true but your time still has to be factored into the cost of producing something yourself.

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There's no fortune because the very great majority of people who have a hifi won't spend thousands on wobbly assemblies of MDF and aluminium tubing.

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Paul, you missed the point. I said there's a fortune to be made selling an *affordable* rack. Alan's told us he can make one for £80. If it works better than all the "ripoff merchant's" stands then obviously there's going to be a huge demand for it and he'll make a fortune... or will he just discover that there's a bit more to it than 4 bits of mdf and some aluminium tubing?

Alan,
you brought up the subject of DIY in your first message. In your second message you mentioned how 'cheap' your stand was to make and that you take offence to the prices charged because the material costs of the stand were minimal.
Quite frankly I don't care what you put your gear on, that comes down to personal taste - in case you're wondering, I also use a homemade stand.
What I object to is people saying that they can do something better and cheaper without firstly knowing what they are talking about and secondly without producing the goods. It always seems to be stands that elicit this response from people. For some reason you can see that electronics, amongst other things, have some value other than their component parts - which are also only a small portion of the price - yet you can't accept this with a stand. Why is that?

As for taking offence to your opinion that stands are overpriced... not at all - if you can back it up. You've read the other thread, so I'll make you the same offer. If you can produce a hi-fi shelf that's better than what's currently on the market (sonically and visually) for what you'd consider to be a non-offensive price (ie less than a Q4) then you've already got one sale right here.

Hey John, what about the dollar value of the time you have taken in trying to refute all of the reasons Alan has given for wanting to make his own rack. Most of his reasons were offered in response to challenges on this forum as to why he shouldn't do it. Its not likes he trying to force his opinions on others. If the guy wants to make his own rack and thinks Qaudraspire, Fraim, etc. are overpriced what is there to get all defensive and threatened about. If the manufactured racks don't sound better to him and he gets satisfaction from his project why the need to rebut everything the guy says.
f

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Most of his reasons were offered in response to challenges on this forum as to why he shouldn't do it.

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Garth,
I didn't say he shouldn't do it, I was refuting his his claims that manufactured racks were overpriced and that he could do it cheaper. Did you not read my last message? I have also built my own rack but I'm not going to make any ridiculous claims as to its cost effectiveness.

Just realised the thread was bringing a smile to my face. It can't have reached the offensive level otherwise I wouldn't be feeling this way - besides which I have designed my own rack recently and I am getting it made by someone (partly) and doing the rest myself. But there is no chance that I am saying any more than it is metal, wood, glass, sand, spikes, and a big lump of rock, it is costing me a lot more than £80 and I am getting lots of enjoyment out of the project.
Terry.

Hi John,

I suppose the reason that many people consider stands overpriced is that they can actually see what a stand is made of and they have an idea of the cost (more or less) of the material used. With electronics it's not so obvious, I have never opened my CDS for instance and even if I would, I have no idea about component cost, manufacturing cost etc. It could very well be that if I knew more about electronics, that I would consider Naim gear overpriced. I'm glad I don't know much about electronics!
The judgement if something is overpriced remains personal and is relative. I find the Fraim overpriced but I had no problem paying the same sum for a painting.

Ciao!

Willem

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Originally posted by Alan Ball:
Ahhh.. It does give you a nice warm fluffy feeling knowing you've done something yourself.

Plus there was an advantage to building my own rack. Each 'compartment' is shielded with aluminium and earthed and has internal cable runs which should keep all cables seperate and untangled from each other.. There is also space around the back for the sockets and the holes where the powerleads enter through the back are staggered so they come out directly above their socket.. again.. hopefully no touching cables.

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building a nice sounding and solid HiFi rack requires some skills that many of us here on the forum dont have. I know that I dont have such ability. YES!!! all brand name hifi racks are over priced (just like when you buy a BMW or Mercedes or a Jaguar). I have tried different racks and they make my Naim system sounds differently. Also there is no universal agreement on how a HiFi rack should be build (I ended up with filling my HiFi rack with mixture of lead shoots and fine sand - same for my targer reference speaker stands). I guess most of us went on the frenzy upgrading (Naim boxes) and just before getting broke, the last effort is the rack. Well at least that is how it is in my case. If you can make a nice HiFi rack and modify it till you like the sound, it is the best option and if you cannot do so, just go and pay for what you can afford and be happy. I personnally do not think that there is the best design hifi rack (Mana, Naim, etc...). It is the combination of your hifi gear and the support that makes a specific sound that you may like it or not.

It seems like poor Mats has been scared off by the raging debate his question has sparked. Too bad. If I had the discretionary income I would buy a Quadraspire, Hutter, or what ever, and if I had the ability, interest, and time to build a DIY rack I'd do that. I suspect the professionally manufactured rack would sound better but I am not sure that is the whole point of a DIY project. Unfortunately I am a poor klutz and so have no proper rack. My rega planet and Planar 3 sit on a very sturdy and simple two shelf end table, my NAP 90 sits on a paving stone on the floor, and my NAC 32.5 sits in an Ikea Ivar shelf on a paving stone. I too would like some advice on how I can improve the sound of this set-up or whether there is some klutz-proof simple DIY project I could undertake. Perhaps some way of cannibalizing some Lack tables and stacking them? To all those who are offended by my audacious lack of rack-religion I apologize.

Garth

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my NAP 90 sits on a paving stone on the floor

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Should work provided that the paving stone isn't on carpet. Energy will simply be absorbed by the mass of the slab and not dissipated quickly away from the amp. The resulting effect may be a subjective slowing down of the music, and smearing of detail/definition.

I could be wrong of course!

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

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I too would like some advice on how I can improve the sound of this set-up or whether there is some klutz-proof simple DIY project I could undertake.

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Garth, if you want a simple DIY project, have a look at TNT Hi-fi's flexy stand. Easy enough even for me to make and it's an improvement over ikea... can't say that it looks particularly good though.

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Should work provided that the paving stone isn't on carpet. Energy will simply be absorbed by the mass of the slab and not dissipated quickly away from the amp.

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You weren't a Physics teacher, were you?

Paul

I had a rather dem of a mana stand in my home. The basics were, "you don't like it after a week, we'll come and collect it, get your money back".

Despite it costing what I'd consider to be a huge amount of cash for some welded steel and glass, I still bought it.

Why? Because whilst you can buy nice looking stands for £200-300, they really don't make that much difference to sound. The addional that I spent on my mana stand is EASILY worth the amount bearing in mind the improvement it gave.

Just consider:
1. How much you'd think about spending on your next system upgrade?
2. Stands last forever effectively. Nobody does new electronics for one, so you only have to buy a really good one and it'll last you 20 years.
3. If will improve the sound of every piece of equipment you put on it (take my word for that).
4. They do look cool.

I hope you enjoy your Mana and you've got the glass tuned to the spikes.

I only use Mana under my speakers as I already have a performance rack in the form of the QS Reference under my equipment, but yes, stands do make a big difference to the sonic capabilities of the equipment sat upon them.

With Mana, you'll also have the option of upgrading by adding Sound Stages under your amp rack. At £200 a go for the sonic improvements they bring, they are a veritable bargain!

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Don't put me off - I'm going to pick up my new QS Ref racks next week! (and pay for them)

DS

OTD - One Nation - Solar Quest

Mana is good, but I'm not going to change my QS Ref rack.

As for DIY racks, don't make me laugh! The guys at Mana and QS have respectively spent a lot of time and effort on R&D, and most of it was a case of trial and error.

Pay your money, and sit back to enjoy the fruits of their labours.

Good racks don't come cheap, but they will have as much impact on the sonic performanc of your system as a box upgrade costing much more.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

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As for DIY racks, don't make me laugh! The guys at Mana and QS have respectively spent a lot of time and effort on R&D, and most of it was a case of trial and error.

Pay your money, and sit back to enjoy the fruits of their labours.

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Well said! Although there are certainly "scientific" reasons why good racks are better than bad, I have a feeling that few, if any, of us here are knowledgeable enough about material properties to understand the science behind it.

Essentially, it's all about physical energy disappation and/or isolation (depending on the stand you use). I don't know precisely how they work, but I know that I enjoy the sonic result (much better than two earlier DIY racks).

If someone can't bring themselves to spend the money on a good rack, then that's their own choice. They'll just have to live with the musical consequences.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-