Anyone know SACD transport to output PCM via S/PDIF to nDAC

I think it's illegal and companies like AN or dCS take a special permission from SONY to do this within their multi-box combos.

As AMA said and S/PDIF could not handle high bitrate multichannel (I know its stereo you are after..)

The review a few months ago in HiFi Choice seamed to imply that the Cambridge Audio 650BD could output up to 192 from SACD to a DAC.

Eloise

Thanx - if it is not legal I'll forget it then - seems SACD always was a waste then - no wonder it is as dead as MiniDisc and Elcassette and BetaMax - now what did they have in common.

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
The review a few months ago in HiFi Choice seamed to imply that the Cambridge Audio 650BD could output up to 192 from SACD to a DAC.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by m0omo0:

quote:

For SACD playback, the Cambridge 650 BD may be an easy option, because it can decode the DSD SACD audio to PCM and sends it to the SPDIF.

That would be great! But I've the skimmed through the manual, and it reads (p. 27):

quote:

SACD is not available through the optical/coaxial output

SACD PCM seems to be available only on HDMI and analog RCA. Any direct experience of this ?

A nice day to you gentlemen
Maurice

I'm a bit distrusting of HiFi Choice

You can do it by modifying the player internally. I am guessing this is more difficult, warranty breaking, and probably more expensive than buying an HDMI splitter and a Transit.

If you have toslink input on your Mac, I dont know if you even need the Transit. But I dont know anything about "recording" on a Mac and I bet most use a Mac tower with a nice PCI card.

-p

ROTF, I believe in hi-res PCM more than in SACD which was dead since the birth. Hi-res PCM is flooding the market and very soon it will take over the Red Book. I have two SACD discs (both are gifts ) and dozens of hi-res files (bought through internet through DVD disks and downloads). I'm sure the same balance with many other audiophiles today.

The technical advantage (if any) of DSD over PCM is still not clear to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Thanx - if it is not legal I'll forget it then - seems SACD always was a waste then - no wonder it is as dead as MiniDisc and Elcassette and BetaMax - now what did they have in common.

lots of sacd releases most classical/jazz, lots in china/japan. and it does sound better than 16bit cd

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
I believe in hi-res PCM more than in SACD which was dead since the birth.

It doesn't follow that some of the SACD's out there aren't quite good. Also, the format's death, does not entail that SACDs encoded to 24/88 FLAC aren't amazing.

Some of the very nice SACDs I have heard are:
early Genesis,
Depeche Mode (awesome),
CCR,
Peter Gabriel,
Police (amazing)
etc...

I have lots of SACDs and they sound great. I play them on an EMM Labs XDS1. The unit has an optical out which outputs DSD, I believe, but it's meant for an external EMM Labs DAC.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
You can do it by modifying the player internally.
-p

Some might, but way beyond me - I need instructions to work out which end of screwdriver to use. I did see a board that somebody who knew a bit of electronics could fit, but what it would sound like after - I've no idea. I agree with your suggestion about the external box, but then I read that the Cambridge player could just play the discs in to my nDAC, but now I think it can't .... I don't suppose most reviewers get the kit out of the box - one said a 555PS didn't work with the nDAC.

Hey - forgot all my CCR CDs are SACD too - so they are worth a spin. I still have the original vinyl that I bought when they first came out. THe SACDs are excellent on just the CD layer so I'd love to hear the SACD layer.

Thanks to all for the tips and info - but if somebody could confirm that the Cambridge player can or cannot output the PCM then that would be good. It does seem a bargain if it can as the transport jitter has been measured as being very low.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
forgot all my CCR CDs are SACD too - so they are worth a spin. I still have the original vinyl that I bought when they first came out. THe SACDs are excellent on just the CD layer so I'd love to hear the SACD layer.

...and they are done by Steve Hoffman if memory serves. Spectacular.

Oops! Did not see this thread, so I posted this to the other one:

As playing SACD directly to the nDAC, I'm afraid Patrick's solution seems to be the right direction to follow, as the Oppo BD-83 user manual states:

quote:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD- Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVD-Audio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.

HTH
Maurice

quote:

Originally posted by m0omo0:
Oops! Did not see this thread, so I posted this to the other one:

As playing SACD directly to the nDAC, I'm afraid Patrick's solution seems to be the right direction to follow, as the Oppo BD-83 user manual states:

quote:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD- Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVD-Audio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.

HTH
Maurice

sony 3000se is a very good player. really thought it may catch on.

by the way its a really good transport for the ndac. so it wasnt a total loss. hear jeff beck blow by blow on sacd and it makes cd dead in the water

Now I'm confused...

Do you mean that Sony SACD players (is it the 3000ES ?) can output the SACD DSD layer converted to PCM through S/PDIF (because they are Sony), or is it the hybrid RedBook layer that you're listening to ?

As I understand it for copyright protection reasons (SONY), SACD DSD audio is not allowed to be output in any other form than decoded Analog signals ( applies to both Stereo DSD and 5.1 channel). In A/V systems that have proprietary digital connections ( Denon Link for example ) the DSD bitstream from a disc player can be passed to the A/ V receiver and proceesed for audio output but this signal is not accesible at COAX or SPDIF output terminals legally.

Incidentally DSD is properly decoded by a different process from LPCM and in SACD players is output from a dedicated DSD processor. Some multidisc players cheat that by then blending it into a PCM signal path that allows final processing in the same circuit as DVD-A LLPCM, This is actually not the optimum decode process for DSD and could degrade the audio quality and I suspect it is unliely That a normal DAC would make a quality job of turning a DSD signal crushed into PCM into a quality audio output.

SACD is not completely dead. A lot of classical music recordings are produced in DSD with a CD layer included. Listening to these recordings through a decent SACD player it is usually evident that the SACD layer has superior audio to the CD layer.

You understand correctly Geoff. Due to decrees from the great God of copyright it's not permissible to pass DSD or unfettered DVD-A through SP/DIF.

Provided the SACD/DVD-A player has decent DACs inside you can get a very good result from taking it's multichannel or stereo analogue output to a suitable preamp/amplifier. I use my Oppo BD83 for the purpose & it sounds pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
You understand correctly Geoff. Due to decrees from the great God of copyright it's not permissible to pass DSD or unfettered DVD-A through SP/DIF.

Provided the SACD/DVD-A player has decent DACs inside you can get a very good result from taking it's multichannel or stereo analogue output to a suitable preamp/amplifier. I use my Oppo BD83 for the purpose & it sounds pretty good.

Oppo is a very versatile device and you can, with a suitable HDMI + Digital Audio splitter, take the LPCM (maybe even DSD as Oppo can pass DSD onto HDMI) from the HDMI and put it into the SPDIF.

The splitter would have to have the proper EDID data to get the Oppo in the modus to provide this data onto the HDMI.

These splitters are developed to get 2-channel / multi-channel audio to AV-processors from the pre-HDMI-everything era, without having to buy all new AV-equipment.

I confess I've not looked at these splitters Aleg. I do wonder though if you've got a suitably high-quality player with decent DACs on board you're better off just using the analogue outputs?

I'm about to send my Oppo BD83 off to CRT to have it upgraded to SE spec. which includes new DACs and power supply.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
I confess I've not looked at these splitters Aleg. I do wonder though if you've got a suitably high-quality player with decent DACs on board you're better off just using the analogue outputs?

I'm about to send my Oppo BD83 off to CRT to have it upgraded to SE spec. which includes new DACs and power supply.

Hi Tonym -

Not if your eventual goal is to record, store and stream the BDP-83's PCM output.

I do think you will enjoy your BDP83 upgrade to SE. I found it to be a nice step up for the stereo analogue outputs. Still, if I knew for sure that one of the HDMI-to-DVI+S/PDIF converters actually passed the high rez PCM stream, I would go BDP83->HDMI->Converter->S/PDIF->Naim DAC for playback.

All of this feels a bit uncomfortable. The need to convert in order to support older equipment is legit, but if it does allow one to bypass Sony/Philip's copyright protection, then I guess I am surprised these devices exist. Maybe there are already lawsuits in process? Maybe another possibility is that they do pass PCM, but throttle it down to 16/48.

Has anyone tried one? The least expensive converter I've found is $169, and my SACD & DVD-A collection is not exactly huge, so have been waffling on whether to get one.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
I confess I've not looked at these splitters Aleg. I do wonder though if you've got a suitably high-quality player with decent DACs on board you're better off just using the analogue outputs?
....

I wonder about that too.
On my previous Oppo DV981 I preferred the Naim DAC to the Oppo DAC. Even though the SACD was converted to 88.2 kHz LPCM I prefered the Naim DAC output to the Oppo native DSD.

On the Oppo BDP-83 I don't know yet because I need to have the EDID from my splitter adjusted because the BDP-83 is much more strict regarding the HDMI handshake than the DV981 was. By default the EDID from my splitter is more geared towards multi-channel than plain 2-channel stereo. I'm awaiting the response from my dealer on this, before I can compare the Oppo BDP-83 DSD-to-PCM conversion + Naim DAC vs. Oppo BDP-83 DAC + analogue output.

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
I confess I've not looked at these splitters Aleg. I do wonder though if you've got a suitably high-quality player with decent DACs on board you're better off just using the analogue outputs?
....

I wonder about that too.
On my previous Oppo DV981 I preferred the Naim DAC to the Oppo DAC. Even though the SACD was converted to 88.2 kHz LPCM I prefered the Naim DAC output to the Oppo native DSD.

On the Oppo BDP-83 I don't know yet because I need to have the EDID from my splitter adjusted because the BDP-83 is much more strict regarding the HDMI handshake than the DV981 was. By default the EDID from my splitter is more geared towards multi-channel than plain 2-channel stereo. I'm awaiting the response from my dealer on this, before I can compare the Oppo BDP-83 DSD-to-PCM conversion + Naim DAC vs. Oppo BDP-83 DAC + analogue output.

-
aleg

Hi Aleg -

So it does pass high rez PCM? Cool.

Which splitter are you using? Thanks.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:


Hi Aleg -

So it does pass high rez PCM? Cool.

Which splitter are you using? Thanks.

Hook

I use the Octava HDDA51 and it actually does pass HiRes. It can only pass through what it receives from the source, it cannot resample anything. It is the purpose of this HDMI handshaking to let the source know what capabilities the target device has, so the source can adjust its output to the capabilities of the target. This is part of the HDMI standard and that's all nice and well when both devices use HDMI but when the target is not then you have a problem. This where this type of splitters come in. But I don't yet know if this is going to work because my dealer has not yet given a positive response. So I'm still waiting for that. And without a new EDID in the splitter the BDP-83 will only output 48 kHz.

So fingers crossed for a solution.

-
aleg

Hi Aleg -

Thanks for restating -- sometimes it takes me a while to catch on....

Sounds like a converter manufacturer can stay legal by simply not advertising any target capability beyond 16/48. But if one is determined to capture the high rez PCM for streaming to the DAC, at least the EDID mod can be contained within the converter.

Call me inconsistent, but while I would not want to hack an $899 BDP-83SE to bypass copyright control, I don't feel the same about modding a $169 converter to advertise the true capability of its S/PDIF target.

Look forward to hearing how this turns out for you.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Can a SACD Player be sorted by someone that knows what they are doing to give SPIDIF OUT?
Question being would it be that hard to do?

Yes they can Munch. Not sure about price or ease.

You can probably google search "internal modifying Oppo SACD" or something and find some info.

I think it would be much chearper and easier to use a $100 pound HDMI splitter with Toslink output.

At least is could be used for its intended purpose if you wanted to send video and audio to more than one place from a single DVD/SACD player.

-Patrick