another view .... nDAC & CDS3

Posted by: rich2513 on 29 July 2010

Well, i got my dac (already run in) today and have been listening to it with XPS against CDS3/XPS.

I want the dac to work so much. My plan was to get a unitiserve for it or even a used HDX. I can't think of anything more appealing that having 1000's of albums stored on an array that's no bigger than a shoebox and all available at the touch of a button in any order one so chooses.

The fact is though after a days listening I am more into my CDS3 than ever and its made me realise just how incredible it is. All I want to do now is treat it to a 555ps.

I could try and deliniate the differences technically but very quickly words and my own powers of analysis will fail me. Initially the DAC with the XPS is impressive with very solid grip, wide and spacious soundstaging and a very strong upper bass giving overall a very full and big sound. I can imagine is doing VERY well in demos.

But then, I put the same music on the CDS3/XPS. Initially the sound almost seems a little narrower, not compressed just smaller and less split apart. Then you immediately notice that its more laid back and less forward. The sounds of instruments are a lot subtler and have more grace, more delicacy about them and more beauty. Everything feels more considered and careful.

Then after a few tracks comes the big one. I could not explain it even if i sat and listened to the same songs 100 times over but somehow, the mixture of instruments, sounds and notes is just so much better. They play off eachother and relate to eachother in a way which is so much more meaningful, musical and delightful. This is something I find amazing about hifi, a slight altered balance of the different parts can mean that the whole track sounds another plane musically and can draw you in like nothing else and invoke emotional response by the bucketload.

The CDS3 is beautiful, organic, beguiling and flowing. The simplest metaphor I can use is to say that the nDAC/XPS sounded to me like good hifi that is being thrown at you whereas the CDS3 is like an beautiful instrument that is being PLAYED to you right in your living room.

The very biggest acid test in all this though is what it does to your body and your heart. I like to try to get a rough appraisal of what's going on technically but the big picture is always about what's going on inside me and after a while i just listen and see what happens globally. Well the fact is on my favourite music the CDS3 just draws me in more and more and drifts me off into this land where hifi doesn't exist. It almost feels like I am in another place, almost hypnotised and a part of me cannot analyse or study the sound anymore because I am just all at sea, swimming in sound and emotion, completely lost in it and drunk on it. That's what the CDS3 does. It did it today on Angus and Julia Stone's album, on some Kate Bush, Pat Metheny and Norah Jones too. Its an amazing experience and it's incredible that Hifi can do that to you. Tears, pure joy, goosebump, spine shivers.... the CDS3 did it all today but sadly on the dac it was just 'listening to good music'.

So there you have it. Just another persons findings.. It's not what I was expecting (My CDS3 is up for sale) and perhaps not what you want to hear but I am now sticking to CD replay for the for forseeable future.

Question is, can say an HDX over wavs in the rear USB port close the huge gap. Personally I think no, because for me the DAC needs to fundamentally change a whole load of stuff to make it a true rival to my CDS3.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by garyi

Ok.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

I compared CDS3 with CDX2/nDAC/555PS and preferred the second combo - though both were damn fine CD players.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich2513

If I remember right you preferred the Dac to the CD555 as well.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by pcstockton

Rich,

is that comment your way of dismissing ROTF's preference?

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:
If I remember right you preferred the Dac to the CD555 as well.

thought it was close ... very close

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich2513

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
Rich,

is that comment your way of dismissing ROTF's preference?

No, just prompting him to expand upon his findings. If he preferred the dac to all Naim CDP's then my guess is there is something very specific about the DAC's sound which he liked. I have tried to explain what I heard and how I listen to music so people can understand my findings IN CONTEXT. I don't think short one line posts help us understand one another any better.

Do you have something to add the the original subject of this thread or are you here just to police it in some way ?

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich2513

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:
If I remember right you preferred the Dac to the CD555 as well.
thought it was close ... very close

Did you try the Dac with both the XPS and the 555PS. I am trying to use the search function but can't get any definitive opinions on the difference ?

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by PureHifi

rich2513, my one question is...

Unless I have missed something in your post you do not reveal what source was feeding the nDAC...

In my experience with the DAC all sources (or CD transports) are not equalised by the DAC.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich2513

quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:
rich2513, my one question is...

Unless I have missed something in your post you do not reveal what source was feeding the nDAC...

In my experience with the DAC all sources (or CD transports) are not equalised by the DAC.

I am using WAVS straight into the rear usb slot.

I hope to borrow and HDX very soon to try that.

If you know a way in which the dac can be made to sound flowing, musical, beuatiful and totally engrossing like a CDS3 then please let me know ! I have no vested interest here, if anything I want the DAC to work for me.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Joe Bibb

quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:

I am using WAVS straight into the rear usb slot.

I hope to borrow and HDX very soon to try that.

Not surprised you prefer the CDS3 over the USB. I've had a CDS3, nice player. But you can do better with the DAC if you try different sources.

Joe

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Do you have something to add the the original subject of this thread or are you here just to police it in some way

I'm not here to police anything ..... I didn't think what I said was particular aggressive.

I found when I was listening to Eldorado on the CDS3 and CD555 that I was listening intently to discover how much better they were than my old trusty CDX2/555PS - however, when the CDX2-2/nDAC was introduced I found I stopped listening for the hi-fi style differences and simply thought what a great performance and a wonderful piece of music. When this happens I know something is right for me. With the CDX2-2/nDAC/555PS I was hearing one of my favourite pieces and enjoying it more than ever.

Now writing it like this is extreme. On other music I found the CD555 was the most appealing, but not overwhelmingly so. It was one superb CD player.

I've heard the CDS3 on its own and its is very good CDP and I really like its sound. Doing comparisons is artificial - you are trying to hear differences rather than just sit back and say this is great.

I could happily live with any of the above combinations, but without limitless funds I had to choose and went nDAC/555PS (well I already had the 555PS). I decided not to have my CDX2 converted, but to use it with Stax ear-speakers as a late night system and it is quite superb in this guise. So I'm using Mac/hiFace/nDAC/555PS as source and it sounds remarkably good to me - would I swap it for a CDS3 - errr no. Would I like a CDS3 - yes please if there is a spare one going.

Would I like a Chord DAC to use with an iPod, of course.

We are discussing some very fine products - I'm not one to say my system is better than somebody else's or the Spongu DAC blows everything else out of the water.

However, that is the nearest I can give to explain my comments. I respect your view and I was not criticising it in any way. I'm not criticising people for liking the Weiss DAC - though I do draw the line at somebody suggesting I need to hear it, as if life is not quite right if I don't. I may think it is fantastic, but would I buy one .... errrr no: so it would waste a dealers time to demo it to me. If I ever hear one I'll comment on what I hear, but not something I'm overly interested to do - there's more than enough other worthy posters who can so do.

So to re-iterate I think the CDS3 is wonderful. I prefer what I've heard of the CD555. I have chosen to go the Naim DAC route 'cos it suited me and I prefer it in the context of my system and another system I heard that was far better than mine.

'nuff said ....

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:

Do you have something to add the the original subject of this thread or are you here just to police it in some way ?

Adam Meredith promoted me to Constable a while ago.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich2513

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
Do you have something to add the the original subject of this thread or are you here just to police it in some way
I'm not here to police anything ..... I didn't think what I said was particular aggressive.

I found when I was listening to Eldorado on the CDS3 and CD555 that I was listening intently to discover how much better they were than my old trusty CDX2/555PS - however, when the CDX2-2/nDAC was introduced I found I stopped listening for the hi-fi style differences and simply thought what a great performance and a wonderful piece of music. When this happens I know something is right for me. With the CDX2-2/nDAC/555PS I was hearing one of my favourite pieces and enjoying it more than ever.

Now writing it like this is extreme. On other music I found the CD555 was the most appealing, but not overwhelmingly so. It was one superb CD player.

I've heard the CDS3 on its own and its is very good CDP and I really like its sound. Doing comparisons is artificial - you are trying to hear differences rather than just sit back and say this is great.

I could happily live with any of the above combinations, but without limitless funds I had to choose and went nDAC/555PS (well I already had the 555PS). I decided not to have my CDX2 converted, but to use it with Stax ear-speakers as a late night system and it is quite superb in this guise. So I'm using Mac/hiFace/nDAC/555PS as source and it sounds remarkably good to me - would I swap it for a CDS3 - errr no. Would I like a CDS3 - yes please if there is a spare one going.

Would I like a Chord DAC to use with an iPod, of course.

We are discussing some very fine products - I'm not one to say my system is better than somebody else's or the Spongu DAC blows everything else out of the water.

However, that is the nearest I can give to explain my comments. I respect your view and I was not criticising it in any way. I'm not criticising people for liking the Weiss DAC - though I do draw the line at somebody suggesting I need to hear it, as if life is not quite right if I don't. I may think it is fantastic, but would I buy one .... errrr no: so it would waste a dealers time to demo it to me. If I ever hear one I'll comment on what I hear, but not something I'm overly interested to do - there's more than enough other worthy posters who can so do.

So to re-iterate I think the CDS3 is wonderful. I prefer what I've heard of the CD555. I have chosen to go the Naim DAC route 'cos it suited me and I prefer it in the context of my system and another system I heard that was far better than mine.

'nuff said ....

ATB Rotf

Thanks, as you say, comparing is limited. You need to sit back and just enjoy.

Do you think I should try some different sources into the dac ? I would have thought that WAV form a usb was quite a pure uncluttered way of playing music but perhaps the likes of the HDX is on another plain ? I am not really intersted in testing other transports through the Dac against the CDS3 as I may as well keep what I have. I am only interested in answering the question of whether I should migrate to hard disk based music or not.

BTW: the police comment wans't directed at you, apologies if you were inadvertantly offended by it

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by PureHifi

quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:
I am only interested in answering the question of whether I should migrate to hard disk based music or not

Personally, I am going to do both...CDX2 & UnitiServe.

Couple of things to bear in mind when using the USB input on the DAC...how the WAV file was ripped & the USB storage medium itself, both have quite a variation on the final performance (unfortunately). The best comparitive way to open to you with naim product would be using the UnitiServe or Qute, HDX or NS01 - all have a Digital out that can be used with the DAC.

Last listen I had to a CDX2.2 + DAC + 555PS vs HDX + DAC + 555PS I preferred the attack of the CDX2 to the rather smooth approach of the HDX. HiDef music files are another story again and of course for that you look to the HDX, Uniti, etc.

I will be interested to follow your journey on this subject.

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Do you think I should try some different sources into the dac ?

I think the USB stick is a great way to test it - you do need to make sure the tracks are ripped accurately using something like XLD on the Mac (though iTunes is OK). I found using the rear socket on the Naim DAC to be preferable.

TBH if you try this with the DAC/555PS and prefer the CDS3 then there is something about the CDS3 that is special for you and I don't think you'll be able to tip the balance in favour of the DAC. Worth trying a CDX2-2 if you can as a double check.

Yes the DAC will play hi-def files, but none of music is available that way - I can't transfer the few SACDs I have.

Different transports do make a difference - Richard (Dane) has been experimenting, but the USB port at the back is as good as any I've tried - just a bit of a pain to use if you want to store over 1000 CDs - lots of sticks.

So assuming you've moved the music to the USB stick accurately, and with an undamaged CD this will be the case, then it is a great way to test whether the DAC is right for you.

ATB Rotf

Posted on: 29 July 2010 by rich46

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
Do you think I should try some different sources into the dac ?
I think the USB stick is a great way to test it - you do need to make sure the tracks are ripped accurately using something like XLD on the Mac (though iTunes is OK). I found using the rear socket on the Naim DAC to be preferable.

TBH if you try this with the DAC/555PS and prefer the CDS3 then there is something about the CDS3 that is special for you and I don't think you'll be able to tip the balance in favour of the DAC. Worth trying a CDX2-2 if you can as a double check.

Yes the DAC will play hi-def files, but none of music is available that way - I can't transfer the few SACDs I have.

Different transports do make a difference - Richard (Dane) has been experimenting, but the USB port at the back is as good as any I've tried - just a bit of a pain to use if you want to store over 1000 CDs - lots of sticks.

So assuming you've moved the music to the USB stick accurately, and with an undamaged CD this will be the case, then it is a great way to test whether the DAC is right for you.

ATB Rotf

the stick is just a gimmick. and that includes using ipod. the only effective way is a nas drive.

high res for all music is years away, most high res. albums available i bet most of us have got on vinyl or cd

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
I can't transfer the few SACDs I have.

1) DSD internally converted to a 24bit/88.2KHz PCM stream by the Oppo DV-980H player
2) The PCM stream is conveyed into a high-quality HDMI 1.3 cable
3) The HDMI is connected to an Octava 1x2 HDMI Distribution Amp with Toslink Out
4) The PCM stream is splitted into a toslink cable
5) The toslink cable is connected to a M-Audio Transit USB adapter
6) The PCM stream is captured by Cockos Reaper 3.1x using the M-Audio ASIO drivers.
7) Final track splitting (no other editing is involved) is done in Reaper.

Here is one method.

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by Eloise

quote:
Originally posted by rich46:
the stick is just a gimmick. and that includes using ipod. the only effective way is a nas drive.

high res for all music is years away, most high res. albums available i bet most of us have got on vinyl or cd

Sorry rich ... but that statement is rather incomplete.

Plonk on your HiFi rack a Naim DAC, and elsewhere in the house (so noise is away from listening room) a NAS - ever how do you connect them!! A NAS is NOT a source for a DAC. A NAS is a source for a computer (or streamer*).

Eloise

*And yes, some DACs can also be streamers but we're talking about the Naim DAC here which isn't!

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by rich2513

Thanks Guys,

Just want to stress that I am no fool.

I have been using EAC since the advent of MP3's so my test tracks are being ripped by EAC with High recovery/extraction quality. The DAC is secondhand, it's run in, enough said. Is it warmed up in my system, yes. Is the XPS warmed up, yes. Is the CDS3 warmed up, yes. Am i using the same interconnect on both, yes. etc. etc.

Whilst we are all different and I don't wish to denigrate other people's choices, for me, what I am hearing is a fundamental difference in presentation and musicality. I very much doubt it will reversed with small 'system tweaks'. If it is, then I am not sure I want to own a front end that is that sensitive. That said, I have tried wherever possible to give the nDAC the best possible chance as there is nothing better than i'd like to throw all my CD's up in the loft and sit there for hours on end with an iPAD in my hand without having to move. Yes I realise that there are powerlines and different interconnects and that the HDX might give a better rip etc.. but for my mind it should be sounding at least 90% 'there' with all the fundamentals in place. The facts are that at the moment the CDS3 involves and flows and beautifies in a way that puts it in a totally different place when compared to the dac/xps.

What is true is that my music tastes might play a huge part in my preference. I like very emotional delicate music, melancholic music, acoustic, spacious, thought provoking and atmospheric. This is music that has softness, grace and subtle interplay at its heart. I imagine that if I was a rock and metal fan then I could maybe prefer the bolder bigger sound of the dac. I think I am right in saying that one responds very differently to say Tori amos as opposed to Hawkwind and one bit of kit might favour the desired emotional response of one over the other.

I will have an HDX here over the weekend and may pick up a used Meridian 206 early next week as well so I guess stay tuned if any of this interests you.

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by js

quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
quote:
Originally posted by rich2513:

I am using WAVS straight into the rear usb slot.

I hope to borrow and HDX very soon to try that.

Not surprised you prefer the CDS3 over the USB. I've had a CDS3, nice player. But you can do better with the DAC if you try different sources.

Joe

The usb in this case slaves the drive and shouldn't be a bottleneck. Being able to play 24/384 would be an indicator that it doesn't have the normal limitations. That said, I still kind of agree. I'm sure he'll prefer the other sources when tried as I just think the SPdif is special on the DAC in general when given a good source. Perhaps not over the CDS3 as preferences can vary but it will definitely be closer for him.

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
I think I am right in saying that one responds very differently to say Tori amos as opposed to Hawkwind and one bit of kit might favour the desired emotional response of one over the other.

Two of my favourite artists - I love Hawkwind especially the work of the late Robert Calvert - one the truly great singer songwriters - believe me listening to Calvert through a transistor radio with one channel broken would still be enjoyable. I'd recommend Freq, his epic set of song poems about the 1980s miner's strike. I think I've got every record worth having with Calvert on it - I have not bought the endless bootleg issues that came out recently as the sound quality is unlistenable.

Tori Amos is different and I really like her debut album and most other things I've heard by her. I don't have as much by Tori as other female vocalists or indeed Robert Calvert. I must put that right.

Whatever components you use if you enjoy music like Hawkwind and Tori Amos then more power too you. And I personally think you have excellent components. I can't put my CDs in the loft even with a DAC 'cos I still use my CDX2 upstairs.

ATB Rotf

BTW I agree that a few tweaks won't make you magically prefer the nDAC to your CDS3 and why should it - just like a NAS, as suggested by rich46, would not increase my enjoyment of music one little bit (or should that be 16-bits). The USB stick gives excellent results so my feeling is if your prefer the CDS3 over the USB/nDSC thab that's a fair test and the CDS3 is very right for you.

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
I can't transfer the few SACDs I have.

1) DSD internally converted to a 24bit/88.2KHz PCM stream by the Oppo DV-980H player
2) The PCM stream is conveyed into a high-quality HDMI 1.3 cable
3) The HDMI is connected to an Octava 1x2 HDMI Distribution Amp with Toslink Out
4) The PCM stream is splitted into a toslink cable
5) The toslink cable is connected to a M-Audio Transit USB adapter
6) The PCM stream is captured by Cockos Reaper 3.1x using the M-Audio ASIO drivers.
7) Final track splitting (no other editing is involved) is done in Reaper.

Here is one method.

Thanks - sounds possible, but a little bit involved - I don't have any of the kit you mention. Just curious to hear the SACD layer one day.

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by pcstockton

ROTF,

Oppo is a GREAT player. I love their range, and have eyes on a new Blueray from them right now. This particular player is a UNiversal player that can play SACDs, HDCDs, Blueray, DVD, DVD-a, CDs etc.

The Oppo players have the option to output to PCM in both DVD-A and SACD format. Very nice for ripping both.

HDMI cable is simply a video/audio single cable ofen used in hidef situations.

The Octava is a specific bit of kit but useful if you want to split the signal of a DVD player or Cable Box to two different TVs. Here is it used to convert the HDMI to toslink.

The M-Audio Transit is used to get the data into the computer.

It isn't very involved but sounds daunting at first.

Basically you need to get the PCM signal into the computer. HDMI is the only way to get it out of the Oppo. Octava is the easiest way to convert that to toslink which the computer can use.

This method also works, in the same manner, for DVD audio.

FYI, hires rips done this way are stunning.

-Patrick

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
HDMI cable is simply a video/audio single cable ofen used in hidef situations.

Hi Patrick

I do have a HDMI cable between my Panny DVD/HD recorder and TV

What an impressive bit of kit the Octava HDDA12-UK - presumably using a SACD player with PCM digital out like the Oppo with this would let me push the signal straight in to my Naim DAC.

Thanks - I'll see if I can one.

I don't think the Oppo Blue-Ray is available in the UK as I'd like a BR player and if it doubles up as an SACD player then great.

Thanks for the info - Rotf

Posted on: 30 July 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
presumably using a SACD player with PCM digital out like the Oppo with this would let me push the signal straight in to my Naim DAC.

I dont see why not!!! And it is a great Blueray player to boot.

You would need one more HDMI cable if you wanted to send the signal along to a display.
-patrick