another view .... nDAC & CDS3

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

HDMI cable is simply a video/audio single cable ofen used in hidef situations.

Hi Patrick

I do have a HDMI cable between my Panny DVD/HD recorder and TV



What an impressive bit of kit the Octava HDDA12-UK - presumably using a SACD player with PCM digital out like the Oppo with this would let me push the signal straight in to my Naim DAC.

Thanks - I'll see if I can one.

I don't think the Oppo Blue-Ray is available in the UK as I'd like a BR player and if it doubles up as an SACD player then great.

Thanks for the info - Rotf

Oppo Blu-Ray
livingcinema.nl will deliver Europe wide
crtprojectors.co.uk is a uk reseller

-
aleg

It's a better BluRay than transport.

Well it didn't take long. Before I comment I just want to point out that in no way do I wish to denigrate any particular pathway or product. This is all very expensive top notch equipment and hifi is as subjective as art, food, cars or anything else. I just present my findings in context so interested parties can look at the rest of my system, my music tastes, how I like to listen and what i expect from hifi, and then conjugate that back to their own position.


HDX/DC1/nDAC/XPS + CDS3/XPS

--->> NAC52/SUPERCAP/HICAP(CB)/NAXO24(CB)/NAP250(CB)/NAP250(CB)/NACA5/SBL

(where CB = 'Chrome Bumper')



At first the overall sound of the hdx/dac/xps is very impressive with perhaps more information, a lot more grunt in the bass, a wider bigger soundstage and more space between the various parts of a track than the CDS3. I think it does improve upon the USB pen drive that I tried before with the mix seeming a bit more refined and better balanced. At first i just listened to it in isolation and it's enjoyable of sorts and on some acoustic tracks the huge soundstage is stunning. It's also a very meaty, solid and full presentation. I definitely enjoyed it more than the usb stick. On first acquaintance I would say that it is actually more impressive and better 'Hifi' than the CDS3.

But when I listen more and go back and forth to the cd player I sense that the hdx/dac/xps is actually missing an overall coherence and rightness. I quickly realise that there isn't enough variance in the volume or subtelty of different insutruments and notes, and that everything is quite brutal and forceful. This is perhaps part of what robs the HDX/dac of its beauty whereas the CDS3 has it in spades. For example, an intro on one of the Norah Jones's tracks which starts with a lovely interplay between acoustic and bass guitars has far more meaning and musical intent. The rise and fall in volume of the playing and the softness of the strings being played is far more beautiful to listen to than the hdx/dac which seems to grunt the whole thing out in one throw, losing much in the process.

The file based source has also lost a general softness, a delicacy and sense of effortlessness which the CDS3 has and that makes it a harder and harsher sound by comparison over longer listening periods. Part of me is thinking that maybe the hdx/ndac has a punchyness which maybe works much better with the later black series preamps and is possibly too much with the strong boogie signature of the Nac52 and the 'designed around vinyl' SBL'S ?

After a number of albums I also find that the wider more spacious presentation of the hdx/dac/xps detracts; it's almost as if the music has been split apart very far (which in itself is no bad thing) but then it doesn't hang back together as well. Going to the CDS3 makes me realise that the various parts of the HDX/dac sound are not nearly as harmonious, they do not hang together in a homogenous whole whereas the CDS3 sound is melded together wonderfully and so fluid and organic, overbrimming with subtle inflection and the auditory cues which the listener takes to be 'musicality'.

Everything 'sits' together so well in the mix on the CDS3, the player just sings and is magically captivating to my ears in a way that the hard disk music isn't. The comparison to my ears is not unlike the old LP12 vs. the pre-CDS1 cd players. I can completely understand people who won't get my findings and so much of it must depend on music choice and how one interacts with music and what one expects.

The CDS3 makes music, beautiful subtle interplay of instruments, a sense of flow and ease, a seductive beguiling presentation that draws me into an all-encompassing sea of music. When I listen to it it's like sitting in front of a snake charmer and soon enough I can't help but be lost in it all and feel like my body, my being is actually INSIDE the music rather than listening in front if it. That's something I guess you would either have experienced before or not; to me it's the ultimate state of listening pleasure where Hifi no longer exists, cerebral activity dies to a miniumum and the concerns of different parts of the sound completely disappear.

I'd be interested in hearing a Linn Klimax DS, a 555ps with my CDS3, I'd be interested to hear a CD555 and also a rega ISIS but for now, the CDS3 is staying firmly put. Until another box proves me wrong, to my mind Server based music hasn't 'got there' yet and needs more time. One is very concious that the nDAC has been developed as a universal product that not only works in multiple configurations within a Naim system but also has far reaching wide appeal to the Hifi market at large. My hunch is that a server based source will only reach the dizzy heights of the best CDPs and TTs when something is fully fashioned from beginning to end in isoltaion with the one aim, the one product in mind, free form the constraints of having to fulfill different roles with different sorts of equipment and manufacturers.

The current HDX is weightier and quieter. It still has a smoother presentation that many that prefer file based audio like but there is more dynamic contrast and focus. You may still prefer the CDS3 but this would definitely close the gap for you. After using it solo for a week or so, persectives can change. In any case, good write and as long as you've got something you like, all's good. One note. Regardless of what you've been told, try the HDX and Ndac in chassis at the same time with the CDS3 not connected to the pre.

Ok more interesting findings and I am sure these won't be popular but this is how it is.


Playing the same music through the in built CD player in the HDX/dac/XPS was quite frankly a revelation and closes the gap to the CDS3 considerably.

The sound is flatter, gels together more, has a smaller soundstage and you can follow everything a LOT easier. It's not so aggressive and flows in a more gentle fashion. The timing is ROCK solid but it can sound sort of sluggish in a strange way which I need to investigate more (maybe something to do with the ground switches).

Here is my opinion and I would encourage HDX owners to do the same: with the same music played through the HDX's cdp makes it sound as if the hard disk/sound card portion of the HDX is like adding one of those AV surround sound processor effects. It's like the music has been pulled outward by magnets in all sorts of strange directions to create this effect of a wider soundstage but to my ears it sounds like some sort of digital 'effect' and makes the music sound contorted, disparate, difficult to follow and non-musical. It's almost like a fake soundstage which completely destroys the music's realism. Switch back to the HDX cdp and instruments have more of a tangible placement and a believability and there is more grace and subtelty to the overall dynamics.

This to me means that any soundcard update could massively change things so I suppose I owe it to myself to persevere. If the HDX streamer side of things can be made to sound like its inbuilt CDP then I suspect i'll probably be a happy man.

You like it brighter which is fine but I've always preferred the HDX after rip as opposed to from the drawer. Beyond what qualitative differences may exist, I suspect your setup likes one flavor over the other which is fine. Try the chassis stuff. It may give you more of what you're looking for from a file.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
You like it brighter which is fine but I've always preferred the HDX after rip as opposed to from the drawer. Beyond what qualitative differences may exist, I suspect your setup likes one flavor over the other which is fine. Try the chassis stuff. It may give you more of what you're looking for from a file.

I am surpised and disappointed that after all the effort I have put in trying to articulate my findings you think that I just like it 'brighter' ???

It's nothing to do with brightness.


I'll leave the last word with forum member Julian H and gary yeowell who thankfully seem to find exactly what I am now hearing:



" quote:
Originally posted by gary yeowell:

quote:
Originally posted by Julian H:
Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me.



You are not alone Julian. When i reported on my DAC findings back in early January i mentioned this also. The DAC seems to me to fall over itself trying to give masses of midband detail but sounds to my ears quite digital and processed.

By comparison, in the demo my CDS3/XPS2 was a breath of fresh air, sounding like the best of a good T/Table, natural, flowing and altogether musically coherent. At the time i did not want to say too much on the forum and suggested people go listen for themselves (which they still should) but my CDS3/XPS2 sounded MUCH better than the CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2.

Gary.



Thanks Howard and Gary. If more than just me hears it, why doesn't everbody hear it, including Naim? It was perfectly audible, even on the lowly XS system yesterday."

Sorry. I perhaps didn't say that as well as I would have liked. Just that the different presentation is more appealing to you. What you liked most from the combo is what I would describe as the most digital sounding way to use it. To each his own.

What's the rest of the system Rich ?

James

js,

What's the 'chassis' stuff?

Switch on the back for grounding. Always start with everything in chassis before you see if it gets better switched open.

quote:

Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me.

I heard the same DAC at HQ the week of the BBQ (I was over from the States), and, having heard the prototype unit we received late September, this could be quite true. However, production units received late last year were markedly better, with good musical flow and no grittiness.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me.

I heard the same DAC at HQ the week of the BBQ (I was over from the States), and, having heard the prototype unit we received late September, this could be quite true. However, production units received late last year were markedly better, with good musical flow and no grittiness.

Thanks for the feedback David. Thats good to know and concurs with my previous posting in May regarding Stus n-DAC.

quote:

It was better at my mates than I have heard previously though. No break up deep in the mix like I heard at Salisbury/Bristol. That may have been an artifact of the source [transport] rather than being ripped and streamed but I couldn’t be sure.

People really ought to go and hear Linn ADS and KDS to hear what good sounds like [all IMO naturally]. One box instead of three and it sounds better, hmm. Interesting! Ner, ner, ner, Naim arn't listening.

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:
Playing the same music through the in built CD player in the HDX/dac/XPS was quite frankly a revelation and closes the gap to the CDS3 considerably.

The sound is flatter, gels together more, has a smaller soundstage and you can follow everything a LOT easier. It's not so aggressive and flows in a more gentle fashion. The timing is ROCK solid but it can sound sort of sluggish in a strange way which I need to investigate more (maybe something to do with the ground switches).

Here is my opinion and I would encourage HDX owners to do the same: with the same music played through the HDX's cdp makes it sound as if the hard disk/sound card portion of the HDX is like adding one of those AV surround sound processor effects. It's like the music has been pulled outward by magnets in all sorts of strange directions to create this effect of a wider soundstage but to my ears it sounds like some sort of digital 'effect' and makes the music sound contorted, disparate, difficult to follow and non-musical. It's almost like a fake soundstage which completely destroys the music's realism. Switch back to the HDX cdp and instruments have more of a tangible placement and a believability and there is more grace and subtelty to the overall dynamics.

This to me means that any soundcard update could massively change things so I suppose I owe it to myself to persevere. If the HDX streamer side of things can be made to sound like its inbuilt CDP then I suspect i'll probably be a happy man.

Out of interest I compared inbuilt CDP playback with hardisk on same tracks. While CDP playback is OK, hardisk is better - more relaxed/natural, better instrument separation and easier to follow. In fact the complete opposite from what is reported above! I don't hear at all the so called digital effect quoted -very strange. Can our hearing be so different or is there something not quite right with your set-up?
I'm using a 555PS and have the new soundcard but even before the new soundcard was fitted tracks played from the hard drive sounded nothing at all like how you describe.
So I quess as always the advice to anyone is to listen for yourself.
Cheers
Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Jonn:

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:
Playing the same music through the in built CD player in the HDX/dac/XPS was quite frankly a revelation and closes the gap to the CDS3 considerably.

The sound is flatter, gels together more, has a smaller soundstage and you can follow everything a LOT easier. It's not so aggressive and flows in a more gentle fashion. The timing is ROCK solid but it can sound sort of sluggish in a strange way which I need to investigate more (maybe something to do with the ground switches).

Here is my opinion and I would encourage HDX owners to do the same: with the same music played through the HDX's cdp makes it sound as if the hard disk/sound card portion of the HDX is like adding one of those AV surround sound processor effects. It's like the music has been pulled outward by magnets in all sorts of strange directions to create this effect of a wider soundstage but to my ears it sounds like some sort of digital 'effect' and makes the music sound contorted, disparate, difficult to follow and non-musical. It's almost like a fake soundstage which completely destroys the music's realism. Switch back to the HDX cdp and instruments have more of a tangible placement and a believability and there is more grace and subtelty to the overall dynamics.

This to me means that any soundcard update could massively change things so I suppose I owe it to myself to persevere. If the HDX streamer side of things can be made to sound like its inbuilt CDP then I suspect i'll probably be a happy man.

Out of interest I compared inbuilt CDP playback with hardisk on same tracks. While CDP playback is OK, hardisk is better - more relaxed/natural, better instrument separation and easier to follow. In fact the complete opposite from what is reported above! I don't hear at all the so called digital effect quoted -very strange. Can our hearing be so different or is there something not quite right with your set-up?
I'm using a 555PS and have the new soundcard but even before the new soundcard was fitted tracks played from the hard drive sounded nothing at all like how you describe.
So I quess as always the advice to anyone is to listen for yourself.
Cheers
Jon

Well, my other source the CDS3 sounds just fine so its in the DAC/HDX chain. (the XPS used is common to both so its not that). I also hear the same thing using just the dac. I will be doing some more tests just on the plain HDX to see how that sounds.

Maybe I have an early dac that has been superceeded ? What is true is that I have found several other people who found EXACTLY the same thing as me. One person described it exactly as I find it, like a 'surround sound effect' with a forced nature to it. Depending on your tastes this signature maybe something that you like and enjoy but for me its not.

Maybe it's the truer sound ? Maybe the flatter, softer and less 3d soundstagey persentation of the CDS range of Naim CDP's was wrong all along. To me though it just sounds as if the presentation has been 'honed' so that it sounds impressive, wide, powerful and punchy. As you say, listen and make up your own mind.

.......and I think that is cool that you prefer the CDS3 sound.

I don't hear the "problem" with my nDAC even though I was aware of some folks opinions prior to purchase.

You may prefer the Weiss 202 as a DAC solution, at least from the sound perspective, or just get your 555 as you have suggested.

quote:

Originally posted by Jonn:

quote:

Originally posted by rich2513:
Playing the same music through the in built CD player in the HDX/dac/XPS was quite frankly a revelation and closes the gap to the CDS3 considerably.

The sound is flatter, gels together more, has a smaller soundstage and you can follow everything a LOT easier. It's not so aggressive and flows in a more gentle fashion. The timing is ROCK solid but it can sound sort of sluggish in a strange way which I need to investigate more (maybe something to do with the ground switches).

Here is my opinion and I would encourage HDX owners to do the same: with the same music played through the HDX's cdp makes it sound as if the hard disk/sound card portion of the HDX is like adding one of those AV surround sound processor effects. It's like the music has been pulled outward by magnets in all sorts of strange directions to create this effect of a wider soundstage but to my ears it sounds like some sort of digital 'effect' and makes the music sound contorted, disparate, difficult to follow and non-musical. It's almost like a fake soundstage which completely destroys the music's realism. Switch back to the HDX cdp and instruments have more of a tangible placement and a believability and there is more grace and subtelty to the overall dynamics.

This to me means that any soundcard update could massively change things so I suppose I owe it to myself to persevere. If the HDX streamer side of things can be made to sound like its inbuilt CDP then I suspect i'll probably be a happy man.

Out of interest I compared inbuilt CDP playback with hardisk on same tracks. While CDP playback is OK, hardisk is better - more relaxed/natural, better instrument separation and easier to follow. In fact the complete opposite from what is reported above! I don't hear at all the so called digital effect quoted -very strange. Can our hearing be so different or is there something not quite right with your set-up?
I'm using a 555PS and have the new soundcard but even before the new soundcard was fitted tracks played from the hard drive sounded nothing at all like how you describe.
So I quess as always the advice to anyone is to listen for yourself.
Cheers
Jon

And why I commented on the drawer portion of the review. It's never as good (a bit brighter in character) and is optimized for ripping, not playback though not bad.

How did you like the improvements with the update? At this point it should probably only be cuurent units that get reviewed as that's what folks can actually buy. I think some of what Rich didn't like may have been improved for him. Perhaps not but it is a nice update.

It's probably Munch's hard drive that's come on song.

Scratch the Munch comment. Wrong thread.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

This method also works, in the same manner, for DVD audio.

No need to follow such a complex procedure for DVD-A. With the right program you can simply copy the DVD-A files to disk. It´s even easier and better than ripping a CD, because it´s a pure 1:1 copy.

For SACD playback, the Cambridge 650 BD may be an easy option, because it can decode the DSD SACD audio to PCM and sends it to the SPDIF. Other Blueray-players can do the same, but the Cambridge is AFAIK the only one going up to 192kHz. I have not yet tested it, but this should give the opportunity to play SACDs via an nDac, 2channel only of course.

brgds..TC

quote:

For SACD playback, the Cambridge 650 BD may be an easy option, because it can decode the DSD SACD audio to PCM and sends it to the SPDIF.

Interested to hear your test results - I usually hate Cambridge Audio kit with a passion, but if it does this then I'll reconsider. I haven't got any DVD-A discs and am not aware of any music on DVD-A that I like. However, lots of Kinks and Moody Blues SACDs.

quote:

For SACD playback, the Cambridge 650 BD may be an easy option, because it can decode the DSD SACD audio to PCM and sends it to the SPDIF.

That would be great! But I've the skimmed through the manual, and it reads (p. 27):

quote:

SACD is not available through the optical/coaxial output

SACD PCM seems to be available only on HDMI and analog RCA. Any direct experience of this ?

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I usually hate Cambridge Audio kit with a passion

ROTF, may I ask you why's that ?

A nice day to you gentlemen
Maurice

quote:

SACD PCM seems to be available only on HDMI

That is my understanding.

quote:

ROTF, may I ask you why's that ?

I used to use a Cambridge Audio amplifier - the wonderful P60 and then they made some speakers the R50 - beautiful musical transducers - then, of course, the magnificent CD1 - a great company and then ..... they joined some Audio Group and brought out some very ordinary bland unexciting kit - I know somebody who put a complete Azur system because of What Hi-Fi and it was dreary beyond belief. This seems to happen when companies off-shore the assembly - the control exercised in-house is lost. I never heard anything in the Azur range I thought was anything other than mediocre. They were a truly great British audio company ... but now they are a different company.

That said if the BR play would let me play SACDs through my nDAC then I might reconsider.

get the Oppo. Stud player.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I never heard anything in the Azur range I thought was anything other than mediocre.

[...]

That said if the BR play would let me play SACDs through my nDAC then I might reconsider.

Ok, I see. Thank you for sharing your experience. I only own a DACmagic from them, to dip a toe in these distributed audio waters and front a nice S/H Nait2 , and it does a nice job for the price. Not the Naim sound though, and still burning in.

As playing SACD directly to the nDAC, I'm afraid Patrick's solution seems to be the right direction to follow, as the Oppo BD-83 user manual states:

quote:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD- Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVD-Audio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.