HD TV and BluRay
Posted by: Rockingdoc on 08 October 2009
I may be a self proclaimed know-all on; hi-fi, guitars, biycles, cameras etc. but I know almost nothing about TV.
I watch an old cathode-ray machine, but it is getting decidedly blurry at the edges, and daughter has stolen my old DVD player for her room at university.
So I want a nice little telly and disc player for my; Virgin cable service, old DVDs, and presumably new BluRays. I almost always use headphones and a headphone amp when watching, so multi-channel sound is of no interest, but I do need access to a good audio line out, (I'm told the sound from BluRay can be very good), and I think I could appreciate a better picture.
Any pointers?
I watch an old cathode-ray machine, but it is getting decidedly blurry at the edges, and daughter has stolen my old DVD player for her room at university.
So I want a nice little telly and disc player for my; Virgin cable service, old DVDs, and presumably new BluRays. I almost always use headphones and a headphone amp when watching, so multi-channel sound is of no interest, but I do need access to a good audio line out, (I'm told the sound from BluRay can be very good), and I think I could appreciate a better picture.
Any pointers?
Posted on: 08 October 2009 by BigH47
Could I piggy pack?
I'm looking for a (if possible) cheap and good BR/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player. I know I don't want much.
I'm looking for a (if possible) cheap and good BR/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player. I know I don't want much.
Posted on: 08 October 2009 by Rockingdoc
Oh yes, and I tend to view front on in a dimly lit room, which I believe favours LCDs.
Posted on: 08 October 2009 by nap-ster
quote:Originally posted by BigH47:
Could I piggy pack?
I'm looking for a (if possible) cheap and good BR/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player. I know I don't want much.
I think the Oppo 83/831 is the cheapest multi format?
Posted on: 08 October 2009 by Mike-B
I went thru the same conundrum 18 months ago
I changed the whole listening/watching/talking/reading room, moved walls, new ceiling etc..
In came new Ercol furniture including a TV cabinet with a new Sony LCD and the top of the range Sony Blueray (BDP550 I think)
Same time, out went the 72/140/HC ( goodbye ol' friend :-( ) and in came a Supernait ( muchas :-) )
It was hoped by 'er in doors that the Blueray would become the one and only disk player.
What a disapointemnt .......... CD reproduction is an afterthought, 2D flabby weak bass, cymbals sounding like tish tish.
Plan A changed to plan B and my much loved & self design modified Marantz 63 remains in place (thank goodness I insisted to listen before plan A was implimented)
However the sound from Blueray on video sound tracks via TV connected to S.N. DAC are awesome, David Gilmour at Gdansk (e.g.) is a MUST watch (listen) its spell binding sound, and thats zimples stereo, not 5.1 stuff.
Ditto even the non-music stuff, David Attenbourough e.g. and that was a surprise, and even (sorry but I didn't by it) Mamamia.
I changed the whole listening/watching/talking/reading room, moved walls, new ceiling etc..
In came new Ercol furniture including a TV cabinet with a new Sony LCD and the top of the range Sony Blueray (BDP550 I think)
Same time, out went the 72/140/HC ( goodbye ol' friend :-( ) and in came a Supernait ( muchas :-) )
It was hoped by 'er in doors that the Blueray would become the one and only disk player.
What a disapointemnt .......... CD reproduction is an afterthought, 2D flabby weak bass, cymbals sounding like tish tish.
Plan A changed to plan B and my much loved & self design modified Marantz 63 remains in place (thank goodness I insisted to listen before plan A was implimented)
However the sound from Blueray on video sound tracks via TV connected to S.N. DAC are awesome, David Gilmour at Gdansk (e.g.) is a MUST watch (listen) its spell binding sound, and thats zimples stereo, not 5.1 stuff.
Ditto even the non-music stuff, David Attenbourough e.g. and that was a surprise, and even (sorry but I didn't by it) Mamamia.
Posted on: 08 October 2009 by Jono 13
Go Panasonic, minimum 32" which will be LCD, with matching recorder/player which in turn can be controlled from ONE remote.
Do not be tempted to go small as the 16:9 ratio of flat screens means that a 32" is like an old 25" for height.
I am not sure about freesat options, because terrestial HD is on its way and they need a dish, but no SKY subscription.
Jono
Do not be tempted to go small as the 16:9 ratio of flat screens means that a 32" is like an old 25" for height.
I am not sure about freesat options, because terrestial HD is on its way and they need a dish, but no SKY subscription.
Jono
Posted on: 09 October 2009 by Tony Lockhart
We have a 32" Panasonic LCD and a 42" Panasonic plasma. Both give excellent pictures, but the plasma is in a different league.
Both are used in Freeview only, as thankfully some very large trees block out the Astra/Sky satellite.
We are looking to buy a Blu-ray player very soon, and might well return to Richersounds, where we bought the TVs, to buy the Panasonic player. Two models at £150 and £200 are in the running.
By the way, our Freeview PVR outputs an upscaled 720p signal to the 42" TV.
Be careful with the Panasonics, as the bottom of the range models have ropey pictures and sound.
Tony
Both are used in Freeview only, as thankfully some very large trees block out the Astra/Sky satellite.
We are looking to buy a Blu-ray player very soon, and might well return to Richersounds, where we bought the TVs, to buy the Panasonic player. Two models at £150 and £200 are in the running.
By the way, our Freeview PVR outputs an upscaled 720p signal to the 42" TV.
Be careful with the Panasonics, as the bottom of the range models have ropey pictures and sound.
Tony
Posted on: 10 October 2009 by JamieL_v2
Working in TV I have considered upgrading my TV for a while. My decision is that when my current TV dies, I will go HD, but I suspect that will be a while, and for the moment, I prefer my cathode ray tube (CRT) Sony Trinatron.
I have found the picture on LCD and plasma, at standard definition, inferior to my old Trinatron. This was backed up by seeing a JVC LCD next to a broadcast monitor at YTV last year, as the vision engineer wrote an email to whoever put it in there saying that the picture was not of sufficient quality to be used in a TV studio to monitor shooting.
I recently saw a Panasonic HD monitor playing Blu-ray (of Bladerunner), and was blown away by the quality. The friend who has it is also works in film and TV, and he said that it is the first time he has seen a picture for the home market that is as stable as the feed live from a camera to a studio monitor.
The high definition is also very impressive, the tiny lights of the city scape fly over at the start of Bladerunner, did not flicker from one line to another, but were far more like seeing film projected, stable, sharp, unvarying.
I was really impressed, and will go to HD at some point. I will not go HD right now for the simple reason that there is not enough to watch that would tempt me to make the change. Cricket and American Football are on HD broadcasts, but broadcast HD, is a far lower quality than Blu-ray, I think about half the definition of Blu-ray, 1 1/2 times better than current standard definition.
One interesting thing, is that the coding on broadcasts of standard definition sources/channels, is better than the normal standard definition broadcasts. Not necessarily higher band width, but more sophisticated coding. this means that standard definition broadcasts do look better through a HD setup.
I am pretty sure that the Sky HD, even though not full HD, costs more for subscriptions (?).
As for the available films on Blu-ray, that is down to your personal tastes, some of my favourite films are already on there, but some are not even available on DVD (yet, or will ever be), so Blu-ray would be for quite a limited selection for me.
That said, if you can afford HD and Blu-ray, then you are investing in a future standard. Not like the vinyl verses CD choice, but more like the VHS verses DVD, so I would say it is very worth while from either a start up, or replacement position.
I would also say, avoid LCD standard definition monitors are not worth buying, unless you have limited space, and are happy to accept the lower picture quality.
Plasma are better, but not as good as a good CRT from my experience.
As for 'HD Ready', as that is just a standard definition monitor with a HD tuner, slighly better quality, but a bit like putting a V6 engine in a Lada, a little better, but pointless.
If you want a test for a LCD monitor, look at either a marathon, or a screen of rippling water, it just pixelates into blocks as it can not cope with all the information. Try the same on a plasma.
I hope that helps.
One consideration that is probably not on most people's considerations on this topic, but my cat really likes sleeping on the warm back of the Trinatron, above the heat vents, and I have yet to see a NH, LCD or plasma monitor that has a ledge built in for her.
EDIT.
I just had a look on Ebay for 'Sony Trinatorn' are there are loads for next to nothing.
Negative points: second hand, questionable lifetime, and they occasionally need a replacement power supply.
Positive points: better picture than a LCD or standard definition plasma monitor, cheaper and would allow you to put your money towards the best Blu-ray player in your budget.
That is an option if you do not want to go the whole HD route now.
One thing I do not know is if a Blu-ray player has the option to run it into a standard definition monitor, I presume it does.
I have found the picture on LCD and plasma, at standard definition, inferior to my old Trinatron. This was backed up by seeing a JVC LCD next to a broadcast monitor at YTV last year, as the vision engineer wrote an email to whoever put it in there saying that the picture was not of sufficient quality to be used in a TV studio to monitor shooting.
I recently saw a Panasonic HD monitor playing Blu-ray (of Bladerunner), and was blown away by the quality. The friend who has it is also works in film and TV, and he said that it is the first time he has seen a picture for the home market that is as stable as the feed live from a camera to a studio monitor.
The high definition is also very impressive, the tiny lights of the city scape fly over at the start of Bladerunner, did not flicker from one line to another, but were far more like seeing film projected, stable, sharp, unvarying.
I was really impressed, and will go to HD at some point. I will not go HD right now for the simple reason that there is not enough to watch that would tempt me to make the change. Cricket and American Football are on HD broadcasts, but broadcast HD, is a far lower quality than Blu-ray, I think about half the definition of Blu-ray, 1 1/2 times better than current standard definition.
One interesting thing, is that the coding on broadcasts of standard definition sources/channels, is better than the normal standard definition broadcasts. Not necessarily higher band width, but more sophisticated coding. this means that standard definition broadcasts do look better through a HD setup.
I am pretty sure that the Sky HD, even though not full HD, costs more for subscriptions (?).
As for the available films on Blu-ray, that is down to your personal tastes, some of my favourite films are already on there, but some are not even available on DVD (yet, or will ever be), so Blu-ray would be for quite a limited selection for me.
That said, if you can afford HD and Blu-ray, then you are investing in a future standard. Not like the vinyl verses CD choice, but more like the VHS verses DVD, so I would say it is very worth while from either a start up, or replacement position.
I would also say, avoid LCD standard definition monitors are not worth buying, unless you have limited space, and are happy to accept the lower picture quality.
Plasma are better, but not as good as a good CRT from my experience.
As for 'HD Ready', as that is just a standard definition monitor with a HD tuner, slighly better quality, but a bit like putting a V6 engine in a Lada, a little better, but pointless.
If you want a test for a LCD monitor, look at either a marathon, or a screen of rippling water, it just pixelates into blocks as it can not cope with all the information. Try the same on a plasma.
I hope that helps.
One consideration that is probably not on most people's considerations on this topic, but my cat really likes sleeping on the warm back of the Trinatron, above the heat vents, and I have yet to see a NH, LCD or plasma monitor that has a ledge built in for her.
EDIT.
I just had a look on Ebay for 'Sony Trinatorn' are there are loads for next to nothing.
Negative points: second hand, questionable lifetime, and they occasionally need a replacement power supply.
Positive points: better picture than a LCD or standard definition plasma monitor, cheaper and would allow you to put your money towards the best Blu-ray player in your budget.
That is an option if you do not want to go the whole HD route now.
One thing I do not know is if a Blu-ray player has the option to run it into a standard definition monitor, I presume it does.
Posted on: 10 October 2009 by David Scott
In practice HD Ready seems to mean a display with 720 vertical pixels whereas standard definition is 480. This makes no sense, but there you go. Some HD broadcasts including some on Sky are in 1080i, so not quite as good as the best blu-ray (in theory) but potentially very good. The David Attenborough Planet Earth discs are 1080i and they look fabulous.
Posted on: 10 October 2009 by JamieL_v2
quote:Originally posted by David Scott?:
In practice HD Ready seems to mean a display with 720 vertical pixels whereas standard definition is 480. This makes no sense, but there you go. Some HD broadcasts including some on Sky are in 1080i, so not quite as good as the best blu-ray (in theory) but potentially very good. The David Attenborough Planet Earth discs are 1080i and they look fabulous.
WARNING: This is very boring post, but might interest teccys.
I have heard TV HD called 'Standard definition on its side'. So is 720x1080 (in Europe anyway - I think). Not sure what is happening with frame rates, US 30fps and Europe 25fps I presume?
Just a note in case people do not know the differencs between the US/Japanese and European and much of the rest of the world standard definition formats.
US format NTSC, image size 480x720 (square) pixels, 30 frames per second (fps).
Europe format PAL. image size 720x576 (4:3 rectangular) pixels, 25 fps.
Fance, same as PAL, but use SECAM to give the colour signal.
Although PAL,NTSC and SECAM are generally referred to as the formats, they are really how the colour is encoded into the signal.
In general the colour on PAL is considered more stable, NTSC colloquially being referred to as Never The Same Colour, however, the faster frame rate means that NTSC broadcasts flicker less. SECAM is pretty much like PAL from the little I have seen.
There are also two ways of scanning the screen fo TV broadcasts,
(i) interlaced - scans every other line, top to bottom, then goes back to the top and scans the other set of lines, NTSC - even lines )0,2,4 ..480, then 1,3,5... 497, PAL odd lines first. If anyone has seen images that judder on a still this is because, it is held on one frame but is scanning the two fields one after another.
(p) progressive, scans all the lines in order 1,2,3,4....480 or 576 for PAL. Deals less well with fast motion, but is often shot to allow a little more motion blur. Feels more like film.
Filmic is a process that makes interlaced frames into progressive frames, but does lose some definition, but many (me included) feel it looks nicer.
HD is almost without exception shot as progressive scan, although there is an interlaced option. Film by its nature is like a progressive scan, but does capture the whole image at the same time, ie. not top to bottom.
Really pleased the David Attenborough dcis look good, another tick in upgrade column, now if only someone would release Alain Resnais film 'Providence' on Blu-ray I would rush out tomorrow and buy HD.
Posted on: 10 October 2009 by David Scott
Hi, You're quite right about pal 16:9 being 576 vertical pixels rather than 480, but the two HD ratios in current use are 1280x720 (the resolution of many panels sold as HD ready) and 1920x1080 which is often referred to as 'full HD'.
Posted on: 10 October 2009 by mudwolf
I had a 19" Magnavox for 15 years, Just bought a Samsung LCD and their Bluray player, don't hesitate, whatever you buy you will have a whole new experience. Make sure to port it thru your stereo.
Posted on: 11 October 2009 by andy c
Recently purchased a 42" plasma panny, and the cheaper blu-ray. No problems with either at all - the blu-ray player being rather good value for its price.
Posted on: 11 October 2009 by tonym
Panasonic gets my vote also; Samsung are very good too but don't use their in-built speakers.
My main beef with BluRay players is the ludicrously slow loading times. Oppo have overcome this issue and if you want to lash out their player is excellent and will play nigh-on any type of disk.
My main beef with BluRay players is the ludicrously slow loading times. Oppo have overcome this issue and if you want to lash out their player is excellent and will play nigh-on any type of disk.
Posted on: 12 October 2009 by Rockingdoc
Thanks all. What sort of connector am I likely to need for BluRay player into an external DAC? Does the HDMI socket provide for audio analogue line-out and digital output?
Posted on: 12 October 2009 by Mike-B
HDMI connections are found on all BRP, but not many DAC have them. So it depends on your DAC.
I have not many options and have the following set up
HDMI connection BRP-TV
Optic connection TV-DAC (Supernait) [TV also has lower quality "anologue" phono RCA pair]
Coax connection BRP-DAC
I now only use BRP-HDMI-TV-Optic-DAC routing when watching/listening to a disk
I have found when using BRP-Coax-DAC for audio and BRP-HDMI-TV for video it has a millisecond audio/video sycro problem.
When I get round to it (de-wiring the boxes is tiresome) I will remove the coax.
I have not many options and have the following set up
HDMI connection BRP-TV
Optic connection TV-DAC (Supernait) [TV also has lower quality "anologue" phono RCA pair]
Coax connection BRP-DAC
I now only use BRP-HDMI-TV-Optic-DAC routing when watching/listening to a disk
I have found when using BRP-Coax-DAC for audio and BRP-HDMI-TV for video it has a millisecond audio/video sycro problem.
When I get round to it (de-wiring the boxes is tiresome) I will remove the coax.
Posted on: 14 October 2009 by Rockingdoc
O.K. bought my telly (Samsung LED thingy)and BluRay player, but struggling with my audio now.
TV is connected to Virgin cable box by SCART adapter, because Virgin box only offers SCART. If I take line audio from the Virgin box it is way out of sync with the TV picture. So I need to take the audio from the TV, post-processing? But new TVs seem to offer only HDMI sockets and digital audio out via Toslink. Surely not many people are using an external DAC, so how are you connecting your TVs to your hi-fi?
If I now understand it correctly, everything is happening in digital. Modern TVs seem not to offer any analogue line out for audio.
TV is connected to Virgin cable box by SCART adapter, because Virgin box only offers SCART. If I take line audio from the Virgin box it is way out of sync with the TV picture. So I need to take the audio from the TV, post-processing? But new TVs seem to offer only HDMI sockets and digital audio out via Toslink. Surely not many people are using an external DAC, so how are you connecting your TVs to your hi-fi?
If I now understand it correctly, everything is happening in digital. Modern TVs seem not to offer any analogue line out for audio.
Posted on: 14 October 2009 by Rockingdoc
Been trawling AV sites, and it appears the only way may be to have a Hi-Def AV decoder, which is usually found in a multichannel AV receiver?
In case anyone else is interested in this, here is an explanation;
In AV amps that use HDMI "Switches" (not "Repeaters"), the HDMI input is not connected to anything other than the HDMI output . This means the digital audio can only pass straight out the AV amp and into the display device (passthrough). The sound can NOT be heard via the speakers connected to the AV amp. The sound is still digital when it reaches the display device and as display devices generally only deal with analogue audio (2 channel stereo, not multichannel digital), they can not perform digital to analogue conversion on the digital audio and extract the full multichannel digital sound track that may be in the audio stream. You must connect the player to the AV amp with an additional digital audio cable, such as an optical (TOSLINK) cable (Not suitable for streaming HD audio), use multichannel analog input / output jacks (suitable for streaming HD audio, but not always a viable option), or utilise an AV amps that utilises an HDMI "Repeater".
In AV amps that use HDMI "Repeaters" (not "Switches"), the HDMI Repeater is connected to the internal electronics of the AV amp. This
means the AV amp can perform the necessary DAC and decoding to the digital signal so that it can be amplified and output to the speakers connected to the AV amp. This means no further connections are necessary from your HDMI source device to the HDMI AV amp as all data can be sent and handled by the HDMI repeater.
S/PDIF transmission aren't compatable with HD audio streaming. Due to bandwidth limitations, neither coaxial nor optical digital connections support multichannel HD audio streams. If you connect your Blu-Ray player to an AV receiver with optical or coax, the audio will "fall back" to Dolby Digital, DTS or two-channel PCM (lossless, but only two channels).
Note that you don't specifically need a receiver equiped with HDMI v1.3. First-generation HDMI provides full-bandwidth playback of Dolby DigitalPlus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio signals decoded to LPCM inside the player while HDMI 1.3 (version number refers to the interface on the receiver/amp and not the cable used) can handle/transport Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD bitstreams (from players equipped with bitstream output capability) directly to AV receivers equipped with Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio decoding.
If you lack HDMI connectivity between the player and the AV receiver or the type of HDMI interface on your AV amp is only an HDMI "Switch", you'll need a player and AV receiver with a set of multichannel analog input / output jacks. You'd need the player to perform the decoding in order for it to send the LPCM data to the AV receiver via its multi-channel analog outputs to the corresponding inputs on the AV receiver. Multichannel analog outputs give full-bandwidth playback of Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio soundtracks decoded to LPCM inside the player and connected to an AV receiver equipped with multichannel analog inputs. However, most receivers do not apply DSP postprocessing to analog input signals. In these instances, a Blu-ray player that provides bass management (particularly important if you have a sub/satellite speaker system) is preferable.
It should be noted that when sending LPCM rather than the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA bitstream, the AV receiver's Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA indicator will not light up. This is because the AV receiver is not decoding Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA – the BD player already did the decoding. Instead, the receiver will (correctly) indicate that it is receiving a LPCM audio stream.
In case anyone else is interested in this, here is an explanation;
In AV amps that use HDMI "Switches" (not "Repeaters"), the HDMI input is not connected to anything other than the HDMI output . This means the digital audio can only pass straight out the AV amp and into the display device (passthrough). The sound can NOT be heard via the speakers connected to the AV amp. The sound is still digital when it reaches the display device and as display devices generally only deal with analogue audio (2 channel stereo, not multichannel digital), they can not perform digital to analogue conversion on the digital audio and extract the full multichannel digital sound track that may be in the audio stream. You must connect the player to the AV amp with an additional digital audio cable, such as an optical (TOSLINK) cable (Not suitable for streaming HD audio), use multichannel analog input / output jacks (suitable for streaming HD audio, but not always a viable option), or utilise an AV amps that utilises an HDMI "Repeater".
In AV amps that use HDMI "Repeaters" (not "Switches"), the HDMI Repeater is connected to the internal electronics of the AV amp. This
means the AV amp can perform the necessary DAC and decoding to the digital signal so that it can be amplified and output to the speakers connected to the AV amp. This means no further connections are necessary from your HDMI source device to the HDMI AV amp as all data can be sent and handled by the HDMI repeater.
S/PDIF transmission aren't compatable with HD audio streaming. Due to bandwidth limitations, neither coaxial nor optical digital connections support multichannel HD audio streams. If you connect your Blu-Ray player to an AV receiver with optical or coax, the audio will "fall back" to Dolby Digital, DTS or two-channel PCM (lossless, but only two channels).
Note that you don't specifically need a receiver equiped with HDMI v1.3. First-generation HDMI provides full-bandwidth playback of Dolby DigitalPlus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio signals decoded to LPCM inside the player while HDMI 1.3 (version number refers to the interface on the receiver/amp and not the cable used) can handle/transport Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD bitstreams (from players equipped with bitstream output capability) directly to AV receivers equipped with Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio decoding.
If you lack HDMI connectivity between the player and the AV receiver or the type of HDMI interface on your AV amp is only an HDMI "Switch", you'll need a player and AV receiver with a set of multichannel analog input / output jacks. You'd need the player to perform the decoding in order for it to send the LPCM data to the AV receiver via its multi-channel analog outputs to the corresponding inputs on the AV receiver. Multichannel analog outputs give full-bandwidth playback of Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD and Dts High Res Audio/dts Master Audio soundtracks decoded to LPCM inside the player and connected to an AV receiver equipped with multichannel analog inputs. However, most receivers do not apply DSP postprocessing to analog input signals. In these instances, a Blu-ray player that provides bass management (particularly important if you have a sub/satellite speaker system) is preferable.
It should be noted that when sending LPCM rather than the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA bitstream, the AV receiver's Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA indicator will not light up. This is because the AV receiver is not decoding Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA – the BD player already did the decoding. Instead, the receiver will (correctly) indicate that it is receiving a LPCM audio stream.