sidegrade: LP12 -> P9 and 6pack -> 500...??

Jun

a well set-up LP12 should be OK for 18-ish months. The ARO tends to hold things in tune longer die to its relatively light load on the LP12 suspension. Additionally, you've eliminated the whole arm-cable dressing problem with the Prefix, so this should see your LP12 as less maintenance intensive overall.

quote:

---

I have a (not yet rebuilt) Koetsu Onyx which I can't use in my Aro at the moment, because I would need a heavier counterweight for the Aro and a different armboard for the LP12. I once tried to mount the Koetsu in the Aro and the sound was much more beautiful than with the Troika, but due to the improper adjustment it was mistracking etc..

---

Surely this is a little "cart before the horse"? Why not find a better cartridge for your existing record spinning rig, rather than finding one to suit your intended cartridge? With the P9/RB1000 in mind, will the Ko work ok in that setup?

In answer to your question re Prefix and P9, Vuk Vuksanovic uses this combo IIRC.

Not playing records as much? You could try the (contentious to some) option of removing the supercap from the prefix, and instead powering that direct from the NAC52 - see how it works for you.

best

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico, thing is that I would like to know if I could reach better overall performance with about 8 boxes less...

Forum members ensured me that a 500 would trounce my 6pack in every department: so it would enhance CD performance. But if I swap my LP12 for a P9 with a 500 in place: is LP12/Aro/Troika/Geddon/Prefix/Supercap/52/Supercap/Snaxo/Supercap/6*135s into NBLs that much better than P9/RB1000/Koetsu/phonostage(*)/52/Supercap/500/NBLs?

(*) MC-Boards or Prefix with or without extra Supercap...?

- Jun



P.S.:

removing the supercap from the prefix, and instead powering that direct from the NAC52 - see how it works for you

Can't do it because the 52 is too far from the LP12...!

Jun

Is swapping the LP12 for a P9 a sound economic proposition?

There is also a strong contingent on the forum supporting swapping the 52 for a NAC552 before condsidering the NAP500, have you considered this

I would be very hesitant to go from a Prefix/Supercap set up to internal boards in your 52

OK, I will carefully demo all options regarding phonostage. Thanks for your information!

Your Linn should sound magical

It actually does! I am just a little bit afraid to setup it every 18ish months...

Is swapping the LP12 for a P9 a sound economic proposition?

I am impressed with what the Koetsu can do, but it seems to be a little complicated to use it with the Aro since I need a different arm board and a heavier counter weight. Do you think the LP12/Geddon/Aro/Troika into supercapped Prefix is more magical than P9/RB1000/Koetso/Prefix/Supercap?

strong contingent on the forum supporting swapping the 52 for a NAC552 before condsidering the NAP500

I know. But I also heard from forum members that 135s are not really up to show what a 552 offers. I could easily live with my active setup. I just thought if I could sidegrade my system without spending much money but with noticeable improvement and less... Also the 500 is available s/h, but the 552 hardly. And finally: CDS2/52/500 is "classic", whereas CDS2/552/6*135s would push me into CDS3/500 territory. Initially I planned not to go for the new series kit, as kind of self protection

- Jun

Jun

My comments about the "sound economic proposition" related to the logic of selling your LP12/Aro/Geddon for c.£1500 to buy a P9 at £2000 to save £40 setup costs every 18 months or so

Going supercapped prefix to internal 52 power will compromise the sound of the 52 and hence other sources (CDS / NAT etc)

"135s are not really up to show what a 552 offers" - I am sure this is a weak argument with 2 135's, but with 6 135s, SNAXO and Supercap I would be extremely surprised if this is the case

"I planned not to go for the new series kit" - me too but I've got a Nap500 and a NAC552 and CDS3/XPS2 on order, hell you only live once (just need a pair of NBLs now )

quote:

---

hell you only live once

---

but rather well. . just do it!

The P9 has its own PS - and ARO probably won't work as well, and will require some work to install.

Art Dudley did not like the ARO onthe original P9. His judgmenet, FWIW, is that the P9 is a bargain, as good as the LP12/ARO/'geddon, but different. OTOH, he recently compared the VPI Scout with VPI arm favorably to the LP12.

It sounds as if you're not happy with the cartridge. Are you sure the Troika is OK? Why would you need a new armboard if you got the heavier counterweight?

Regards.

Phil

Are you sure the Troika is OK?

Yes, it's rebuilt by Expert Stylus

Why would you need a new armboard if you got the heavier counterweight?

Because the Koetsu has different distance between it's mounting holes and tip.

It sounds as if you're not happy with the cartridge (Troika)

No, not unhappy at all! But the Koetsu was even better...

- Jun

My thoughts on this are:

The P9 sounds like a good Roksan (light, fast, good timing). It sounds like a CD player.

The LP12 plays to the strengths of analogue, especially with the Naim bits (Arm/PS), with the Linn bits it sounds like a CD player.

LP12s do not need setting up that often. If it has been done well to begin with and hasn't been carelessly moved about once every three years should do it.

You should change your LP12 belt more freqently, or clean it to maintain a good sound. Sometimes this is a bigger difference than a "tune up".

The prefix sounds best straight into the 52 rather than the routed through a Hicap. The Hicap option subjectively is smoother and more refined but it is really masking the fact that your cartridge is a minger. If you have a pukka catridge (eg Troika, some Dynavectors, some Lyras) straight into 52 is best. Also RF is lower this way. Prefix routed via dedicated SuperCap is a bit more swings and roundabouts and it has been a while since I did that one.

I agree with the Mark Russell, get a 500. You don't need a 552 to appreciate how good the 500 is.

"The LP12 plays to the strengths of analogue, especially with the Naim bits (Arm/PS), with the Linn bits it sounds like a CD player."

I think Cirkus and Trampolin makes the LP12 sound more like a CD player.

Dev

"prefix sounds best straight into the 52 rather than the routed through a Hicap"

I really cant agree with that one. After you stated this a couple of weeks ago I revisited this as mine has been hicapped since I got it c.1996. Whilst I dont suffer RF anyway, I found the dedicated Hicap powered prefix to be better (LP12/aro/gedon/XX2) in every way. I also found the CDS2 and NAT01 performance worse with the 52 powering the prefix.

I spoke to Richard at Naim about this as I have ordered a 552 and wanted clarification on 552 power vs external power for prefix to decide whether to keep my 52's Supercap to power the prefix and mentioned your views. He agreed with my view that outboard power was best for prefix and said this was also Roy Gregory's view.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bosh:
He agreed with my view that outboard power was best for prefix and said this was also Roy Gregory's view.

---

Roy Gregory is a round earth heretic! You mean Roy George.

I too have discussed this with Richard after I blew some speakers up recently, and I really feel that Prefix straight into 52 is the best option. To my ears there is a more immediate, more direct, more upfront presentation with better PRaT. Pluuged into a Hicap, the sound is smoother and more refined, but loses some of the energy and upfrontness of the direct connection. The problem with the direct correction is that if your cartridge is harsh it is ultra revealing and will show this as a lack of refinement, but if your cartrige is good it works really well.

Obviously powering the prefix off the 52 will affect the 52 in a small way, but so does adding other components (CDR, headphones, tuner, etc) and I feel the losses are marginal. Also I haven't tried a dedicated supercap for the prefix and in theory this would give you a better powersupply, but you are also introducing another cable, which is a bit of a compromise.

Lucky you for getting a 552, if I were that lucky I would power the prefix straight off that since the 552 PS is quieter than a Supercap.

Lastly, Naim have slightly revised the Supercap to lower noise, my 1995 one recently went back for a service and apart from new caps, a wire was re-routed to further lower noise.

regards,

Dev

Thanks all for your input! Back to the initial question: If you were given the choice between the following 2 systems - - which one would you choose?

A) LP12/Aro/Troika/Geddon/Prefix/Supercap/52/Supercap/Snaxo/Supercap/6*135s/NBLs (plus CDS2)

B) P9/RB1000/Koetsu Onyx/Prefix/Supercap/52/Supercap/500/NBLs (plus CDS2)

Dev

Sorry yes I did mean Roy George, not enough coffee yet today

I have tried the Supercapped prefix and wasnt overwhelmed by the difference, I noticed lower surface noise and better scale and detail but felt that at £2300 + my hicap in px it not to be cost effective.

I intend to compare the 552 and Hicap to power the prefix. I understand the 552 power gives better sound but if this compromises the CD and NAT01 I may go for the Hicap option as I listen to far more CDs than LPs (10:1). I must confess however this is due to the fact that I do actually prefer the sound of the CDS2 to the LP12 (and the CD2 to the P3/Elys in the 2nd system).

I suppose I better duck down now

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jun Keller:
Thanks all for your input! Back to the initial question: If you were given the choice between the following 2 systems - - which one would you choose?

A) LP12/Aro/Troika/Geddon/Prefix/Supercap/52/Supercap/Snaxo/Supercap/6*135s/NBLs (plus CDS2)

B) P9/RB1000/Koetsu Onyx/Prefix/Supercap/52/Supercap/500/NBLs (plus CDS2)

---

I would choose system A except that i would exhange the 135s, both Supercaps & SNAXO for a 500 and run the NBL's passive. I would also get the XPS2 and S-XPS burndy for the CDS2, both are huge upgrades to the front end which will really improve the CDS2.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bosh:
I must confess however this is due to the fact that I do actually prefer the sound of the CDS2 to the LP12 (and the CD2 to the P3/Elys in the 2nd system).

I suppose I better duck down now

---

Bosh,

In what ways do you prefer the CDS2, do you like it's dynamism and PRaT compared to the LP12. I have to say on balance my LP12 is just a bit smoother at the top end, but I find it hard to choose between the two. I think the CD player has slightly better PRaT than the LP12, but both sound very similar.

The Mana stand makes the LP12 a bit brighter atr the top and a bit leaner in the bass which helps it sound more dynamic which helps.

regards,

Dev

Jun

The P9 has a very different presentation to the LP12. If you really like what the LP12 does, then I don't think the P9 will be your cup of tea. It may be impressive for a while because in certain respects it is much better than the LP12, but overall, its presentation is different and you may come back to that.

If the mounting positions for the Koetsu are that different from the Troika's, then you have another option, which is to order an ARO top either with holes drilled for the Koetsu or with slots in it so you can set up the cartridge correctly. This would be a cheaper and more effective solution in my view. I have not heard a Koetsu in an LP12 but I have heard them on other occasions and I imagine that the result would be truly synergistic.

The 500 benefits from a total rethink based on 20 years of experience and 6 years of direct R&D. It is also the same price as a 6-pack. If it did not perform in a truly different class from the 135s something would be very wrong. You're right that you can pick up a 500 2nd hand so you should be able to make the swap relatively inexpensively. The only other change I have heard of that might be interesting is the new 362 SNAXO. You may or may not know that the new active crossover from Naim is significantly modified from the old one. It is not simply a beefed up crossover but a complete rethink from the ground up and this too benefits from some serious R&D. Perhaps this could also be considered?

However, if you simply want to remove several boxes, the 500 is definitely the way to go.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Dev

The LP12 definitely is comparitively slow and lifeless, especially in the bass region (on Fraim) its a shame ive not got the floor space for a mana table or a wall substantial enough to hang a mana wallshelf from

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bosh:
Dev

The LP12 definitely is _comparitively_ slow and lifeless, especially in the bass region (on Fraim) its a shame ive not got the floor space for a mana table or a wall substantial enough to hang a mana wallshelf from

---

Bosh,

Your Dynavector is not helping either, I suspect if you tried a ArkivB or Arkiva things woudl be a lot more dynamic. I have a XX-2, Arkiv B and a Clavis DC and the Arkiv is very different in presentation to the refined Dynavector. Also remove the baseboard. You coudl try and raise the back of the arm (i.e not have it parallel) and reduce the tracking weight. All of these things can help.

Dev

Dev

Thanks for the input

I had the XX1 previously and as any vinyl user is aware demo'ing cartridges is a nightmare. I intended to spend only £3-400 (17d2 level) but heard the XX2 compared to the XX1 and thought it a lot faster and cleaner than the XX1 and decided to spend a few hundred more (how many times has that happened). Didnt try the others as no northern dealers could offer a dem.

I had the baseboard put back on when the XX2 was fitted at the advice of the dealer who said it gave the LP12 plinth better rigidity

The arm is slightly raised at the back, it was initially a little more raised but lowered after 100 hours by my dealer at his recommendation. I recall this did "dull" things a bitPerhaps it should go back up. How much higher should it be at the pillar end?

The tracking is set to 2g, again as my dealer advised, what is the minimum recommended?

Bosh

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bosh:
I had the baseboard put back on when the XX2 was fitted at the advice of the dealer who said it gave the LP12 plinth better rigidity

The arm is slightly raised at the back, it was initially a little more raised but lowered after 100 hours by my dealer at his recommendation. I recall this did "dull" things a bitPerhaps it should go back up. How much higher should it be at the pillar end?

The tracking is set to 2g, again as my dealer advised, what is the minimum recommended?

Bosh

---

Bosh,

Ditch the baseboard, get some special Mana 3M feet. The baseboard doesn't add any rigidity to the plinth - that's crap, the corner braces and top plate do that, if anything the BB dulls the sound.

Experiement with the arm height at the back, don't go mad, but make sure the little allen key that holds the arm pillar up is only done up finger tight.

Forget about recommendations with tracking weight / anti-skating best to do this by ear as it varies with temperature and your room. Listen and decide and then measure it.

I remember from previous posts that you have struggled with room acoustics in the past, maybe that is affecting your results with the LP12. Also it could be that you have a crap LP12. I've had two idential spec (Aro, etc) and my current one is miles better than my first.

Dev

Dev

Thanks for this, I experimented blind with the tracking weight and found the hot spot, measured it which was 2g, exactly where it was previously set to

However tried the arm height adjustment to great effect. At was actually parallel initially, so I tried raising it in 1-1.5mm increments upto c.5mm at which point the bass went too dry and lean and the top end too sibilant and splashy. The optimum pillar increase seems to be c. 3.5mm from parrallel at which point the bass is faster and tighter, the mid/upper band much more open, 3D and detailed. The surface noise is more evident but there is now no trace of "?mistracking?".

It's definitely not slow and lifeless anymore.


Jun - apologies for hijacking your thread