The Great Al***s

quote:

Our Tune mentions a hero of mine when it starts by saying that on A47 somebody was shouting at passers by that he was Alan Brazil

Isn't the lyric saying something about "Alan Brazil seems to be the singer in the Goombay dance Band"?

That's what I always thought it said anyway and was a particularly inspired observation (see below)!



I must admit ROTF I far from agree with your choice as the best HMHB album. For me if I put them in order MTAD would be the bottom one. Disappointing I thought despite the amount of time they kept us waiting for it!

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Shayman:
I must admit ROTF I far from agree with your choice as the best HMHB album. For me if I put them in order MTAD would be the bottom one. Disappointing I thought despite the amount of time they kept us waiting for it!

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan

I didn't really say it was the best HMHB album, I simply said it was a great album

That said, I think I probably like it more than you - if you'd put it bottom of your list. Surely, you must like Everything's AOR: for me it's a classic and would be an automatic choice for a Best of ... along with What Is Chatteris and, of course, Dead Men Don't Need Season Tickets and Running Order Squabble Fest.

My favourite HMHB album changes quite frequently, but if I'm asked to recommend one then it's Cammell Laird Social Club, which I think is the perfect introduction to the Four Lads Who Shook The Wirral. I always used to put Trouble Over Bridgwater at the top of my list, but then I decided Back In The DHSS and then .... I can't decide they're all good.

But that's just me: I can find my way home from Sierra Leone but I’m lost without an inside pocket

So what would your choice be for the great HMHB album?

ATB Rotf

PS

So help me HMHB fans
I don’t know what to do
I’ve only got three bullets
..and there’s four of Motley Crew

Do you not think lists like the Rolling Stone one are just a result of lazy journalism and/or some sort "oh lets do the usual list thing, who are the usual suspects" rather than about identifying truly "great" albums?

Cheers
Rich

How many great albums are there?

Shedloads. I can think of hundreds without really trying, and I'll bet there's hundreds equally great that I've never heard.

How many Great Albums can one artist have ?

Is Neil Young's Harvest a Great Album, or was it just a commercial follow up to After The Gold Rush, which might have been his first Great album, until you listen to Everyone Knows This Is Nowhere, and you realise that the greatness really started there, everything needed was present and in place. I mean if you could only have one Neil Young album you'd want it to be a Great Album, and it wouldn't really be Harvest would it ?

quote:

Originally posted by Diode100:
How many Great Albums can one artist have ?

Is Neil Young's Harvest a Great Album, or was it just a commercial follow up to After The Gold Rush, which might have been his first Great album, until you listen to Everyone Knows This Is Nowhere, and you realise that the greatness really started there, everything needed was present and in place. I mean if you could only have one Neil Young album you'd want it to be a Great Album, and it wouldn't really be Harvest would it ?

No, it would be 'Tonight's the Night'.

quote:

Originally posted by JoeH:

quote:

Originally posted by Diode100:
How many Great Albums can one artist have ?

Is Neil Young's Harvest a Great Album, or was it just a commercial follow up to After The Gold Rush, which might have been his first Great album, until you listen to Everyone Knows This Is Nowhere, and you realise that the greatness really started there, everything needed was present and in place. I mean if you could only have one Neil Young album you'd want it to be a Great Album, and it wouldn't really be Harvest would it ?

No, it would be 'Tonight's the Night'.

No, way too bleak, you'd miss out on so much of the man if you only had Tonight's the Night.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Cundill:
Do you not think lists like the Rolling Stone one are just a result of lazy journalism and/or some sort "oh lets do the usual list thing, who are the usual suspects" rather than about identifying truly "great" albums?

Cheers
Rich

Rich

That's what I think.

I prefer Record Collector to Rolling Stone.

Having a list that says Sgt Pepper is the greatest record ever made doesn't help me much: I know it very well and I have it on vinyl and CD. So yes, it is a great album.

However, when RC describes Rainbow Ffolly's Sallys Fforth as a great album and describes it so vividly and with such enthusiasm then it makes me want to find a copy and listen for myself - I'm glad I did.

A forum member writing enthusiastically about an album he or she thinks is great can have a similar effect.

So I'm very interested to know what others feel are great albums and to explain why they think that.

It doesn't just have to be rock albums - it can be anything. Recently picked up some Operas In English because of forum recommendations and quite frankly they are superb and I've been missing out on some great material for years.

This thread has already inspired me to order two Van Morrison albums: Astral Weeks and Moondance (£3.98 each). I hope they are as good as everybody says

Here's a bit on cynicism for ya.


Rolling Stone, Q, Mojo et al produce list to help record companies bolster their sales remember old albums reissused make more profit than having to invest in new music.

On the other hand


Record collector, Wire and Dance mags make lists for people to discover great new and old music that should be on the "100 most obvious albums we could think of lists"



Check out Topography Of The Lungs by The Evan Parker Trio, to scramble a few braincells and make you see the light.



Dean..

I just did a cursory count. I have my records organized in this fashion.

Jazz - 600
Newer purchase Jazz(last seven years) - 200
Classical - 1,000
Blues - 100
Older Rock - 1,600
Newer Used Vinyl (purchased in last seven years)- 600
New Released Vinyl (over last ten years - 600
Not So Good Albums not listened to much but still worth having - 1,000
Not So Good Jazz/Classical - 200

So that's about 6,000 albums. I'd say at least 2,000 of them are great albums, 3,000 are really good albums worth having, 1,000 not so good but worth hanging onto for the occasional listen.

The nice thing is that there is whole lot of great stuff out there still to be had.

Cheers,
John

John,
that is an impressive collection. My firends think i'm bad with nearly 2000.

Ryan

I've been collecting records for thirty-five years and close to half of them were purchased used. I frankly didn't think I had so many, I thought I had about 3,500. I guess that's an average of about one record every two days.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Cundill:
Do you not think lists like the Rolling Stone one are just a result of lazy journalism and/or some sort "oh lets do the usual list thing, who are the usual suspects" rather than about identifying truly "great" albums?

Cheers
Rich

Rich

That's what I think.

I prefer Record Collector to Rolling Stone.

Having a list that says Sgt Pepper is the greatest record ever made doesn't help me much: I know it very well and I have it on vinyl and CD. So yes, it is a great album.

However, when RC describes Rainbow Ffolly's Sallys Fforth as a great album and describes it so vividly and with such enthusiasm then it makes me want to find a copy and listen for myself - I'm glad I did.

A forum member writing enthusiastically about an album he or she thinks is great can have a similar effect.

So I'm very interested to know what others feel are great albums and to explain why they think that.

It doesn't just have to be rock albums - it can be anything. Recently picked up some Operas In English because of forum recommendations and quite frankly they are superb and I've been missing out on some great material for years.

This thread has already inspired me to order two Van Morrison albums: Astral Weeks and Moondance (£3.98 each). I hope they are as good as everybody says

I must admit I've got bored of some of the "great" albums. Sgt Pepper for example - I remember playing it for the first time as a 15 year old and thinking it was the most amazing experience. I could almost see the musical colours they were creating etc. Played it a couple of weeks ago (30 years on) and was distinctly underwhelmed. I think I know it too well! I always think the next new album (as in new to me) I listen to is gonna be the next "great" album for me. Doesn't always work but as I am discovering John Coltrane properly for the first time most of it is working!

So on that basis its a bit tricky for me to do a list.

Cheers
Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Ecosse:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

I think there's a crucial difference between a list of one's favorite albums and a list of the greatest albums of all time. The lists may or may not align; it's hubris to say that simply because I love album x, y, or z that therefore it's one of the greatest albums of all time. There has to be an element of nearly universal acclaim for any album to be truly one of the greatest ever; some of those listed in this thread are not. That isn't to say that they aren't really good, or that someone doesn't really love it, but that it hasn't garnered that timeless, universal cultural acclaim.

I'd like to see a thread in which the participants try to come to a consensus as to identifying the truly timelessly great albums, regardless of their own tastes.

mmmm.... aclaimed by who exactly... if it's pupularity through sales then welcome Robbie Williams, Spice Girls et al to the list... Let's face it, lists of great albums can only be, by their very nature, personal. One man's great album (eg Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of Life.. as discussed above), is another man's pile of kak

Not because of popularity or sales, per se, but neither do popularity or sales preclude greatness ... Beethoven is very popular and many albums of his music have been sold. And his music is nearly universally considered great.

Favorite albums are always personal and entirely subjective, even though there may be objective components to one's personal taste. But what I'm suggesting is that there needs to be clear distinction between personal taste and critical acclaim accrued over time, between "favorite" and "great," especially more so when those two measures don't intersect.

For instance, I really don't care for the operas of Wagner. But I would never insist that they were, therefore, not great. I can recognize their artistic greatness, regardless of whether I dig them or not.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Cundill:
Do you not think lists like the Rolling Stone one are just a result of lazy journalism and/or some sort "oh lets do the usual list thing, who are the usual suspects" rather than about identifying truly "great" albums?

You wonder if it's lazy journalism, and others here have suggested cynical symbiosis between RS and record labels.

But take a look at that list ... which albums on it aren't truly great? Not "which albums do you personally not dig," but which ones can be dismissed as "not great" in terms of artistic intent and the inspired realization of that intent? Blue by Joni Mitchell, or Are You Experienced? by Jimi Hendrix? Perhaps Rubber Soul by The Beatles, or What's Going On by Marvin Gaye? And if not great, why? ... in specific musical, artistic terms, not just "because I think it sucks."

Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but this is really my overriding question ... can we set aside our personal taste and consider the artistic worth of a musical work as a separate issue?

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by JoeH:

'Greatness' in any artistic genre is critical acclaim plus time

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by JoeH:

But, of course, all artistic judgements are entirely subjective, as art appreciation is an entirely subjective experience.

I disagree ... not entirely subjective. In fact, for sufficient "critical acclaim plus time" to deem a work of art as great, the more objective considerations taken into account, the better. In other words, the more distance from personal taste, the better to determine lasting artistic greatness.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

Not because of popularity or sales, per se, but neither do popularity or sales preclude greatness ... Beethoven is very popular and many albums of his music have been sold. And his music is nearly universally considered great.

All best,
Fred

Hi Fred

I don't think there's much dispute. Beethoven was a great composer, but I was looking for really great albums. My hope was a forum member would post about a particular recorded performance of Beethoven's music and name the orchestra, composer. I have the obligatory set of Beethoven symphonies with Karl Böhm conducting - had them for years. I'd describe the records as good, but not great and think there are significantly better performances out there.

I'm sceptical about critical acclaim because I'd like to know the qualifications of the critics - Record Collector uses enthusiasts who like they music they review; yet it is not always praise that comes forth, as an enthusiast can like a group and be critical. I recently read a review on John Fogerty's Eye Of The Zombie and it savaged the album saying it was banal and not worthy of the artist - it didn't have a good word to say about it; the reviewer was John Fogerty who was asked to review his own catalogue by RC. Being a big fan of John, I immediately re-played Eye Of The Zombie and he is right - it's diabolical. When I bought it some established critics had proclaimed this as one of the best albums of that year, and I remember being very disappointed with it when I got it home. I wonder did they listen to it.

That said, there are, of course, useful critics who help point me and others at great albums that we may otherwise miss.

Fred, without this forum, I wouldn't have known of the great music that you record. I'm happier because I do have your albums. So without the forum, I'd have missed out.

So I definitely think it's subjective when somebody declares something artistic is great. But I'm very happy to hear subjective views as it's to my benefit. If I left it to the critics in RS to choose my records then I'd just have the obligatory 100 albums and I'd not have many albums I consider great, but have not received critical acclaim.

Just a thought.

All the best, Rotf

...and of course none of these lists ever mention The Fall. Which is clearly wrong....

Cheers

Rich

quote:

So what would your choice be for the great HMHB album?

I tried to make my mind up last night and struggled. Narrowed it down to the last 5 albums without realising the exact order so I suppose I'm a late era man......and there ain't many 10+ album bands anyone can say that about.
So anything from 'Voyage To The Bottom Of The Road' to 'Achtung Bono'!


As far as "greats which never trouble the Best 100 albums lists" albums go how about Loudon Wainwright III - 'I'm Alright'.

One Man Guy, Not John and How Old Are You? are 3 of the best songs I've heard for the first time this year (I'm only 22 years behind the times!).

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Shayman:

quote:

So what would your choice be for the great HMHB album?

As far as "greats which never trouble the Best 100 albums lists" albums go how about Loudon Wainwright III - 'I'm Alright'.

One Man Guy, Not John and How Old Are You? are 3 of the best songs I've heard for the first time this year (I'm only 22 years behind the times!).

Jonathan

I have to agree, saw Loudon on a BBC special concert and he had me in stitches all the way through. One funny man.


Adding to the what makes an album great is that the ones in the Rolling Stone list are predominately rock albums and I think only one from the electronic world and in my world of predominately electronic music the albums I listed are considered great albums and not just personal favorites. Also there are very few Folk, Alternative rock (Fall, Sonic Youth), Classical, Jazz, Country, Blues, Funk and these genres are overlooked or one artist is singeled out as the only great artist in these genres, because of what? I love Electronic music and looking over the list again there is not one artist from the Dance/Electronic canon which in my ears is a travesty. Where are Kraftwerk, Tangerine dream, Jean Michel Jarre, Depeche Mode, Human League, Underworld, Leftfield, Boards of Canada, Autechre, Nightmares On wax, Thievery Corporation, why? because they don't get the exposure that the mainstream artist get so how can they get critical long term acclaim in the wider world when no bugger has heard of them. So Fred your thoughts to me are limited in scope and I bet ROTF and Fredrik Fiske could do the same for Folk and Classical respectively.




Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
can we set aside our personal taste and consider the artistic worth of a musical work as a separate issue?

Of course we can, and this means that, unequivocally, Pet Sounds is the pinnacle of Western pop, and anyone who disagrees has cloth ears.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Cundill:
...and of course none of these lists ever mention The Fall. Which is clearly wrong....

Well, yes, which highlights another 'list' problem; The Fall seriously divide opinion. So whereas you might find that most people can (even if grudgingly) go along with most albums on a generic Top 100 list, the presence of even one Fall album would have many of them writhing on the floor, wailing and gnashing their teeth. Top 100 lists tend to favour the bland at the expense of the risky, unless the riskiness is distanced by sufficient time and/or the artist in question has been absorbed by the mainstream.

quote:

Originally posted by JoeH:
Top 100 lists tend to favour the bland at the expense of the risky, unless the riskiness is distanced by sufficient time and/or the artist in question has been absorbed by the mainstream.

I don't think the list compliers aim for blandness, I think they take the safe road, who, after all, is going to put there hand up and dispute that everything issued by The Beatles, Dylan, etc., is not worthy of being hailed as 'great'. Lists themselves are a mental confort blanket, and so, frankly, are most of the albums that appear on them. Except for Who's Next, of course, that's just pure genious & worth at least twenty Blonde on Blondes, Exile on Mainstreets & Rubber souls..

quote:

Top 100 lists tend to favour the bland at the expense of the risky, unless the riskiness is distanced by sufficient time and/or the artist in question has been absorbed by the mainstream.

... agree.. the bland or the overly obvious.