three easy steps to unlocking the mysteries of classical music

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
That said, while it's certainly true that "the world has no shortage of technically awesome musicians with not a shred of artistic flair," it's no less true that there's an equal surfeit of technically incompetent musicians without a shred of artistic flair.

No I don't agree Fred, the flaw in in your post (imo) is if you lack both competence AND creativity, don't have anything to offer and end up not making music. All the other permutations would tend to keep you in the field.

Great post Fred, and I agree with much of it, but none of it backs the statement that punk is not unique in it offers the opportunity for the unschooled to make art. I see nothing in your post which disproves this. Punk is clearly unique in this respect.

I'm going to have to agree with George...I think some music is emotional and some intellectual. Where we'd disagree though (maybe) is I consider music without words has a very limited capacity (though still a little) for intellectual consideration. The human language has a much greater range of opportunities for discussion of an intellectual sort (folk have discussed Dylan's lyrics for nearly 40 decades now...and it will never stop). For me though, it's the emotional stuff I love...when I want intellectual, I'll open a book.

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fred simon:
I consider music without words has a very limited capacity (though still a little) for intellectual consideration. The human language has a much greater range of opportunities for discussion of an intellectual sort

i love you mat, you are so full of shit i laugh until i drool when i read your posts.

whatever you are drinking (or smoking), i'll take two.

The intellect is more flexible than you imagine, Mat. Music is a language, just like english or german.

Like all languages, you have to develop a vocabulary, ... you have to live your life thinking in the language,

Then one day, something happens! You have feelings in that language. I have heard that the shock of feeling anger for the first time in a new language is a revelation!

You have to be a good listener before that can happen :-)

Once you do, a world of emotion beyond the kin of daily life unfolds itself to you.

This one will sing to you.

It makes you a different person.

It's all new flavors :-)

With your ears and your brain you can go exploring, once you've reached that state. If you listen closely anything is possible.

yum :-)

we've talked about trivialities - what is creativity? if you have to ask ...

the feelings expressed in beethoven's symphonies are beyond the limits of what can be expressed in english. it can only be expressed as music. and it is a vitalizing message. the purest distillation of unadulterated hope, and the unrestrained joy of life.

if you listen closely, time falls away like a veil, and beethoven's spirit occupies the room.
he is singing.

the music is devilish clever. if you play this music and you don't feel it, it lay dead on arrival. it can only be brought to life by someone willing to sing out their own emotions. when a player does that, well, that's when you know that anything is possible.

anything.

so mat, how do you feel about beethoven?

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

That said, while it's certainly true that "the world has no shortage of technically awesome musicians with not a shred of artistic flair," it's no less true that there's an equal surfeit of technically incompetent musicians without a shred of artistic flair.

No I don't agree Fred, the flaw in in your post (imo) is if you lack both competence AND creativity, don't have anything to offer and end up not making music.

Mat, I think everyone will agree that's a given ... no competence plus no creativity equals no art.

Anyway, my point is that you're correct: there are musicians who are technically competent but lack creativity. And it's equally correct that there are musicians who lack schooling who have tremendous creativity. But it's equally correct that neither schooling, nor the lack of it, guarantees good art, ipso facto. And, finally, it's also correct that schooling is not an automatic impediment to creativity, as is so often mistakenly believed.

quote:

Great post Fred, and I agree with much of it, but none of it backs the statement that punk is not unique in it offers the opportunity for the unschooled to make art. I see nothing in your post which disproves this. Punk is clearly unique in this respect.

I'm sorry, Mat, that's just not true, and I did cite examples of great art made by the unschooled ... there are legions of blues and jazz and folk musicians who are unschooled but make great music nonetheless. This is not an opinion, it's an easily documented fact. Punk is not unique in this regard.

quote:

I'm going to have to agree with George...I think some music is emotional and some intellectual.

But, Mat that's not what George said! He wrote: "I don't know any music that does not have both aspects [emotion and intellect] to some extent" (emphasis mine). And he's absolutely correct.

quote:

Where we'd disagree though (maybe) is I consider music without words has a very limited capacity (though still a little) for intellectual consideration.

I'm sorry, Mat, that's just preposterous. Music without words has enormous capacity for intellectual consideration. Again, that's simply a fact.

quote:

For me though, it's the emotional stuff I love...when I want intellectual, I'll open a book.

You seem to have a mistaken notion that words=intellect, music=emotion. Are you seriously proposing that books have no emotional capacity?! Nothing could be further from the truth! Emotions and intellect go hand in hand, they are enhanced by each other; they are not adversarial by nature. Even more to the point, there is a significant intellectual component in emotion, and an equally significant emotional component in intellect.

Best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:

quote:

Beethoven followed no rules, nor Ravel

Fred, you know I always agree with your writing on music especially but I have to take exception for these two guys anyway (the rest I am not probably qualified to comment on). Although I agree with your sentiment I think it is misleading to say these guys followed no rules. They did follow rules. To compose anything that Beethoven did he would have definitely had to follow rules (that he learned from Haydn). For example, his Sonatas are generally composed using the Sonata form. As time went on though he did push the envelope a bit. This is the process of evolution. He just intuitively knew which rules to break for great effect and to make his creations clearly something that represented himself or his expression.

Hi Doug,

Yes, on a fundamental level Beethoven and Ravel followed rules, such as the definition of major and minor tonalities, the definition of a whole note, and other basic shared premises upon which all European/Western classical music is based, the basic vocabulary.

And granted, Beethoven did start out in Haydn's footsteps, following some of the formal rules laid down by others before him, the sonata allegro form, etc. I guess my point really is that if Beethoven had only written in the shadow of Haydn, and only followed those formal rules, we likely would never have heard of him ... it's the works in which he not only broke, but smashed the rules that comprise the oeuvre for which he is best known.

So, you're right that he and Ravel, and just about any other great composer, follow certain rules at first, but then break them and even write their own.

Best,
Fred

intellectual - of or associated with or requiring the use of the mind.

emotional - determined or actuated by emotion rather than reason.

for me music is an intellectual experience that brings emotion in its wake. never more so than when there is no narrative.

this weekend i've taken a break from beethoven to hear some new music. my favorite new music of the weekend is mendelssohn's "songs without words" played by barenboim.

where beethoven is at its roots always a statement on the human condition, this mendelssohn is about music finding joy in itself. the melodies are so beautiful, and are developed so nicely, it's easy to glory in the simple pleasure of having one note come after the next.

so far, it's making for a perfect sunday :-)

Hi Fred,

Spot on. I couldn't agree with you more. Some interesting and thought provoking things have been discussed here as well as on some parallel threads currently running.

This concept of music being a marriage of intellect and emotion has always fascinated me. As I said elsewhere, the degree to which either is present (or absent) might be what divides many well intentioned listeners. I think anyone who spends any amount of time listening (or playing) music can easily determine where on the scale a particular composer might want to be positioned (within some degree of latitude).

I wonder if a third dimension couldn't also be added to the intellectual and emotional value. Let's face it, some music was created simply to be functional. It serves a sole purpose of where the other two values probably do not stick out in the forefront of a composers intent (rhythm, beat, tempo, style etc. play a greater role). I think of court music or dance music. Examples of music where the purpose is to aid dancing might be the allemande, courante, gigue, waltz, polonaise, or mazurka etc.. One can also think of a march that serves a military purpose.

Going back to understanding a composer's intent we can see that some music's intent might not necessarily have intellect or emotion high on its list of deliverables (not to say it has any lessor value). Its aim is just to serve a specific purpose only.

Yet, Chopin took this function and threw it out the window. His Waltzes, Mazurkas, and Polonaises, were clearly not meant to be danced to. When you put less emphasis on the functional aspect, I believe music becomes more focused on our individual or personal needs and becomes more human (through intellect/emotion).

So for myself, I'm beginning to understand music better by understanding the value and pertinence of the three dimensions; namely, that of intellect, emotion, and function. Of course, it's likely more complicated than this....

Regards,
Doug