What constitutes a perfect performance?

quote:

I do avoid musical performances from some musicians I think are absolute rotters myself

But George, then this isn't about "music" anymore, it has become more about a subjective opinion or value judgement towards people who are human just like you or I ( remember: Judge not lest you be judged ). Who among us can claim to be perfect? And if you agree that no one really is then the result must be that you (or whomever) is just deciding which "sins" we will hunt someone down for and which ones we will overlook. If you do hold this view then, to be truly consistent, the rational and objective decision on your part should be not to listen to any music, read any books, look at any art or sculpture because you don't know everything about everyone. Why stop there? Do you ever consider that the person who made the shirt you are wearing, or produced the food you eat, or built the Volvo you drive, or distilled the vodka you drink could all, in fact, be very evil people in some respect too.


Noye's F.: I do agree with your view here and do understand your metaphor. I know in a broad sense one should never generalize because logically all anyone needs is one counter example to disprove some proposition but I do believe that one's philosophy, politics, religion etc. do dictate how one chooses to live and are inextricably linked to what an artist produces, for instance. If a particular artist believes man has no soul or that emotions are a sign of weakness while also believing that logic and intellect show strength then the music this person performs will follow this pattern as well. In this case, the value will be placed on the note and its meaning on its own.


Mike: I do admire your enthusiasm for Pollini's late Beethoven. I do have all of Pollini's Beethoven. While very good, I personally couldn't live without all the other Beethoven sets that I've been able to collect and expose myself to. Truthfully, I don't think Pollini has it locked over anyone else nor does anyone else who's recorded or played Beethoven hold the key over him. Right now you're learning from and appreciating Pollini but you will learn even more if, in the future, you start questioning why Pollini does it this way and someone else does it another way. Put another way, you could not prove to me or show me in the score that what Pollini is doing is conclusively right and the only way.

Like what was said several times above, a perfect performance is really just a figment of our imagination; it doesn't really exist.

Regards,
Doug

Doug, good post.
It's great to know a performer can be this geniunely wonderful person backstage as well, ala Beverly Sills or YoYo Ma, for example. Unfortunately it's not always the case. My rude awakening to this was years ago. Being allowed to go backstage for a meet and greet after the concert, the unnamed performer, who had seconds earlier been smiling and bowing, came backstage and began screaming and throwing things at the management. Needless to say, after that I no longer cared to know the personal lives of my favorite performers.
So, has Pollini/Beethoveen finally been put to rest?

Wagner was reckoned to be a total git as a person... but then he wrote Parsifal!

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:
Truthfully, I don't think Pollini has it locked over anyone else nor does anyone else who's recorded or played Beethoven hold the key over him. Right now you're learning from and appreciating Pollini but you will learn even more if, in the future, you start questioning why Pollini does it this way and someone else does it another way. Put another way, you could not prove to me or show me in the score that what Pollini is doing is conclusively right and the only way.

It's surprising how much of themselves supposedly objective performers end up putting into performances. Pollini's approach, although less "interpretive" than others', is quite unmistakable as "an approach", and he sounds very much like Pollini... not the ghost of Beethoven come down from above! I think Brendel has made the point in one of his essays that the notion that the performer can somehow disappear as he receives his instructions from heaven or even just what's written on the score is a nonsense. As anyone who's ever had a crack at composition knows, the amount of information that cannot be conveyed by scoring is a major problem!

If you carefully reread the initial post on this thread, you will see I made every provision for many perfect performances of these sonatas by a variety of different players and approaches. Pollini is just one such approach. I wouldn't want to be without Barenbom or Arrau, and there are probably others I should have.

But Pollini is definitely one such perfect approach, and at the moment I am quite taken with his voicing of these works. I find it unique.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
As anyone who's ever had a crack at composition knows, the amount of information that cannot be conveyed by scoring is a major problem!

I find the amount of information that can be conveyed in a score equally remarkable. A photograph can't convey a scene with truly life-like values. But an Ansel Adams can still put you into a scene. It's much the same with scores.

So I chose to get as much as I am able to from a score to have a valid point of reference.

Earwicker, have you taken a stab at composition?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Earwicker, have you taken a stab at composition?

Yes, several!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Earwicker, have you taken a stab at composition?

Yes, several!

Please elaborate :-)

I studied composition for a short time when I was an undergraduate - just on my own, I never had a proper teacher. I played the violin quite actively in those days but my real ambition was composition. I worked through the standard textbooks from the Royal College, plus Schoenberg's THeory of Harmony, and Piston and DeVoto. I didn't keep it up though, and now I can only read music slowly.

what sort of pieces did you write? Let's hear your inventory :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
what sort of pieces did you write? Let's hear your inventory :-)

Mainly unaccompanied violin, but I sketched a string quartet that was truly awful! I was - well am! - heavily into Beethoven and Bartok, so the wet dream was to write string quartets. I was not, to put it mildly, very good though. :-(

are you still active, even occasionally with the violin?

are we going to hear from GFFJ about my selected perfect performance?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
are you still active, even occasionally with the violin?

Well, I say yes when people ask, but I can't remember when I last played. I work a lot and I'm doing a research degree too so there's no time really. I still listen a lot though and go to concerts when I can. I never wanted it to end up this way, but I'm afraid I've traveled the path from practicing musician to overenthusiastic record collector - something I desperately didn't want to happen but there it is!

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
are we going to hear from GFFJ about my selected perfect performance?

Yes! I suppose so!

I kind of admire Polini. So it is not quite what you might expect but it must be later on, as I have to see a man a bout a dog first, sorry.

ATB from George

Dear Mike, [second half of reply is to Florestan].

Why I asked you to mention a Beethoven performance that falls into the category that you define as perfect is that it really helps me understand your definition of perfect [in the circumstances] for musical performance.

It was not so that those who do not care for this artist or that [or even Polini] might launch into your taste or judgement ...

Polini would not be my very favourite for Beethoven. I'd rather something more overtly spirited as well as spiritual, such as the fiery music making of Annie Fischer, but that is the point really.

You call your favourite performances "perfect," and if I call my favourites anything it would probably be "great" performances. Same thing, but just a different word to a large extent, I would think. I may be wrong of course.

I suspect that it is just usage of this or that word to describe something we are passionate about.

As for a style of more accurate performance being preferable to a less accurate one, then within reason, I doubt that you will get many prepared to argue against you! Certainly not me.

I admired Artur Schnabel's musicianship but eventually baulked at his numerous "bums" or as apparently you call them in the US, "clams.'

I don't think that my eventual inability to cope with knowing a fistful of wrong notes were coming in a recording, anticiapated and almost feared for their effect on the flow of the music for me, means that Schnabel was any less of a great artist than his reputation might suggest, though there is almost no musician liked by everyone who loves the repertoire that they perform.

My description to my attitude to the musical performances of admired artists would only very rarely extend to the admission of affection for the performance. Perhaps half a dozen out of hundreds of pieces of recorded music are favourites that I like so much that it amounts to affection for the performance itself as well as the music. For me it is really only the music, and I never cease to search for even greater performances than I have already heard in the concert room or on recordings. As time goes by the startling discoveries of some new performance that very much finer than previously encountered obviously gets less.

When I find something I like more I part with the old recording. One in one out, or sometimes one in two or more out! I am gradually refining to fewer and fewer recordings, but these I hope are better from the musical standpoint. The reason I say I hope so, is that I certainly don't think I have the monopoly on wisdom in choosing the greatest musical performances, and I have learned a great deal from this very part of the forum, from professional musicians, from musical friends, ... about which performers to look out for at concerts, and also which recordings present great music making ...

Only one artist do I revere to the point of affection, and that is Otto Klemperer, but then we are both rather severe in some ways in musical terms!

Interestingly Klemperer may be thought of as at least very left wing Socialist, possibly even with Communist leanings.

I doubt very much if a real genuine Socialist or even Communist would make a poor musician - perhaps a hopelessly idealistic one - but if the artist had integrity, then certainly a deeply thoughful one. I would not rule out Polini for being an avowed Communist!

My view on artists of a far right wing character would generally be rather less charitable.

Dear Doug,

You quoted me with this: I do avoid musical performances from some musicians I think are absolute rotters myself

And replied with this: But George, then this isn't about "music" anymore, it has become more about a subjective opinion or value judgement towards people who are human just like you or I (remember: Judge not lest you be judged). Who among us can claim to be perfect? And if you agree that no one really is then the result must be that you (or whomever) is just deciding which "sins" we will hunt someone down for and which ones we will overlook. If you do hold this view then, to be truly consistent, the rational and objective decision on your part should be not to listen to any music, read any books, look at any art or sculpture because you don't know everything about everyone. Why stop there? Do you ever consider that the person who made the shirt you are wearing, or produced the food you eat, or built the Volvo you drive, or distilled the vodka you drink could all, in fact, be very evil people in some respect too.

And your points are perhaps less to do with music than any person's general personal way of dealing with life. So I agree with your first point, though I don't find it is disjoined in my case from music.

I have no problem with making judgements [of people, situations, political parties, the actions of people I know], and I would say that it is a fundamental necessity that we all judge in good faith as well as we can.

We must as individuals judge which is the best party to vote for at an election, whether [and how] to behave correctly and in a socially correct way that does no one any harm as far as we can avoid it. I am not a Judicial Judge and do not have the responsibility to judge for others [ie. the society that empowered the Judicial Judge], but I believe it is every person's profopund duty to judge to the best their abiltiy [in as generous a way possible] every single time a decision is made. "Judge not lest ye be judged," is cop out in my view. According to it then anything goes and one will never take a stand against something one believes is evil or merely wrong.

As for not listening to any music or reading any books, for moralistic reasons concerning the arthors or composers, then the same goes. I would not read the words of a Fascist Dictator, but prefer to see the history presented at least from a Democratic perspective.

I prefer composers whose music is uplifting [which is a subjective personal response], and not tainted with extreme political associations, [which is question of personal judgement, but one not without implications for the society within which one lives as an individual]. I avoid the music of people of the far right. Same as for literary works.

As for performing artists it is probably true that a great work celebrating something spiritually uplifting is not going to ruined if it is played by an artist with Fascist sympathies, but somehow it seems simply distasteful to me. It is a personal decision - a personal judgement. It is not judgement on those who act differently, whose taste extends to enjoying the artistry of people whom I avoid. It is simply a judgement I make for myself.

One of the reasons why I would not name names is that begins to be a superfluous judgement on those who dissagree with me!

In dealing with situations where one has none, and probably could never in any case have any knowledge of the morality of the people responsible for making creating [whatever] the machines, sports shoes [whatever] in daily life, I think one could not be expected to know if one's car was actually made by the kind of person one would dislike and boycott the product or service, but to some extent this is of little consequence provided one observes a few simple ideas. Again these are my rules for myself and clearly others will have their own values.

If I knew, because of real and available evidence, that the sports shoes were from a manufacturer which was making huge profits whilst paying below respectable living wages in a Third World sweat shop, then I would buy from a different maker I thought was more fair to its workers.

I happen to think that the Swedes are probably quite nice to their workers in the Volvo factories! I suppose it is not without its significance that if I were to buy a bottle of Vodka, then its original is much more likely to be Polish than Russian.

Such are the judgements, which inform all our daily lives really, and we cannot absolve ourselves of the responsibility to have a position and make the best judgements we can, even if none of us, ourselves, are saints either I am sure.

ATB from George

Nicely penned George :-)

I get a sense of anticipation as soon as I order a new recording. When it arrives, it is usually the centerpiece of the evening. And if it is good, it can dominate the week.

Sometimes they are so good, they get committed to memory. These are the touchstones.

We probably do mean the same things by "great" and "perfect". But at live concerts that rise to this level, I enjoy telling the musicians "Perfect!" Most seem to enjoy the compliment.
It's only fair, when someone gives you a perfect experience.

Dear George,
Thank you for that. As usual I do not disagree with you on most of your points and I always learn more than a thing or two from your writing. However, with a couple ideas, I must admit that I don’t think we will connect or possibly I’ve misunderstood your views somehow.

When it comes to music, in particular, perhaps I am just an idealist. With music (and the arts, in general) I believe with all my heart that these treasures/gifts we have should be protected and not exposed to the same vitriol, which commonly occurs whilst discussing politics, for instance (my side vs. your side type arguments). Concepts that contribute to mankind’s wellbeing (such as beauty, magnificence, ideas, or even virtue) should be off-limits from partisan or non-neutral human value judgments (especially of the negative kind).

You suggest that my points may have little to do with music. I’m just merely saying I don’t believe it serves any purpose to take a political or moral stance against something as innocuous as music or art and by extension a composer, performer, or listener. Music should remain non-partisan. It is what it is and it is there to challenge us and help us develop into better human beings during our short lives.

So, for instance, when you say, “I avoid the music of people of the far right” I just have trouble understanding how this sentiment could be connected to a persons love for “music” or that it serves any purpose. Does the music create an emotional response in me? Is it interesting? Can I learn something from it on an intellectual level? This type of emotional and intellectual probing is what interests me about music. If I learned that Haydn kicked any dog or cat that got in his way I may not respect him as a person or certainly view him as a role model but I still would regard him as highly as a composer as I did before I knew this. The beauty in his creations stands all on their own (no matter what he did or didn’t do right as a person).

Maybe I believe it is more reasonable to have an unconditional love towards music? I want to listen, study, and play music with a completely open mind and perhaps look for the worthiness or merit within it and not focus on the warts or flaws of someone. I'd never throw the baby out with the bath water either. If things like politics or nationality or racism taint a person’s decision to listen to a piece of music then music is really just another cheap, propaganda tool and being used for the wrong purpose.

Suppose J.S. Bach was marked as part of the group of “people of the far right.” Would you still listen and study his music and carry on with your life or cut off all exposure to his music and shake your head in disgust at this “rotter.” I’m sure you would agree that it would be a terrible loss, even a tragedy, if you didn’t have even a small bit of J.S. Bach in your life. I know it would be that way for me. I'm reasoning here like I did in my earlier post that if we can make exceptions to our value judgments then it is a sign that we shouldn't resort to these stances. We should say it applies to all or is relevant to none.

I do not disagree with you on the concept of making judgments in our daily lives, which help inform us and more importantly tell us about our moral standing as a human being. But I am not really sure why you would view the "Judge not lest ye be judged," quote as being a copout. To me, it does not suggest turning a blind eye to evil or injustice. This phrase merely has to do with your own personal accountability. It means no one can claim to be perfect and that when you point your finger at someone that there are 3 pointing back at you. To me, it also implies that I can’t change someone else but I can change myself…

Happy Listening,
Doug

I think there is a real risk of disappearing up your own fundament when answering a post like this, but surely perfection as with beauty, is in the eye (ear) of the beholder. I find it difficult to rationalise perfection in a musical performance to a recorded piece as the visual component is important to me as well.

For me, a perfect performance, in any genre, is one that engages me as a viewer and a listener and "moves" me. This can be irrespective of whether the performer(s) deviate from a score or do not play a tune exactly as it is on the LP / CD, etc.

I mean, how often do you have the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? That must be a good measure.

The first time this happened to me was listening to Itzhak Perlman play Elgar at a prom. I left absolutely gutted that the music was over and that he had left the stage with me and probably a majority of the audience desperate to hear more. Now that I am more familiar with the piece I can probably say that it was not as "perfect" as say Menuhin or Kennedy's recordings but I am eternally grateful that I was there.

Bizarrely, another perfect performance - AC/DC with the late Bon Scott. They did exactly what was said on the tin and I was grinning for days, even if my ears were ringing.

Interestingly, I've heard many many performers describe their craft as the search or quest for perfection. In reality what they mean is they want to realise some concept they have in their minds concerning a piece without hitting too many bum notes or letting things get out of hand. Technical perfection is very commendable, but some of these ultra-objective performances delivered in the spirit of "only playing what's written on the score" often fall short of the mark. There is too much that cannot be conveyed this way.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Interestingly, I've heard many many performers describe their craft as the search or quest for perfection.

Technical perfection is very commendable, but some of these ultra-objective performances delivered in the spirit of "only playing what's written on the score" often fall short of the mark. There is too much that cannot be conveyed this way.

It all depends on what the performer is capable of. I believe in letting them speak for themselves.

Listen to Bolet's words at the end of this masterclass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...SW_s&feature=related

EW

can't let it sit at 666 views - bad karma.