AV2 Wannabee - How not to destroy SBL's?
Posted by: Johns Naim on 12 March 2003
Hi All,
As I wrote in a previous post, I'm now a 'happy camper' with the addition of a Sony pre-power AV processor/amp to my 72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's for the purposes of adding HT capability.
The unit is running in, and producing some very engaging sound re movie soundtracks so far.
However, I'm running sans centre and sub, for the time being, re the usual impecunious circumstances of us HiFi 'geeks'.
As I'm perhaps a bit paranoid about the possible risk of damaging the SBL's with sudden very high level bass transients, re LFE movie effects etc, I've set the LFE channel to off. I can also adjust this re level, from -20Db up to 0Db, which is the standard LFE level.
My rear speakers, are a pair of EPI's, - US made bookshelf 2 way acoustic suspension design, with a frequency response of 55Hz - 20Khz +/- 3Db. Accordingly, I've set all four speakers to large, as I'm under the impression from my limited HT experience, that this would give the best sound.
Before getting the new kit, I was running the audio for movies from the DVD player, via it's analogue outputs. As I understand it from a few articles I've read, the 5.1 to 2 channel downmix process in the DVD player, disregards the LFE, and sums all the other channels into two.
Whilst this was a compromise, as the dowmixing apparently causes level mismatch, and hence masking and loss of detail, and also a loss of dynamics re transient attack etc, the sound was nonetheless well balanced re tonality etc.
In the new setup however, I note that the sound is a bit bass light, compared to how it was before, as I've detailed above.
I'm thinking that as in the previous setup, I was effectively getting all the channels summed into two, then perhaps I'd be better off setting the rear speakers to 'small' and letting bass management redirect the low bass to the SBL's.
I'm not sure if this is the best way to do it, or even if there's much low bass below 50HZ in rear surround 5.1 DD/DTS soundtracks etc, but most importantly I'm concerned in case it might overload the SBL's expecting them to handle the bass from all four channels.
Finally, the LFE. Again, I could turn this on, and attenuate the level slightly compared to reference, which is apparently on Dolby specs 10Db above the level for the other channels, but again I'm concerned/paranoid? about overdriving the SBL's. It's annoying not quite having the 'readies' for a sub just yet, and I don't want to miss out on what the audio side of movies has to offer, hence my musings over turning the LFE channel on.
BUT, am I/would I be expecting too much of the SBL's to handle both the bass for all four channels, PLUS the LFE as well? on these 'blockbuster' movies.
Lastly, I don't listen at very high levels, as apartment living demands some restraint, and also I'm much more interested in detail, ambience and overall finesse in the sound, rather than 'bang and crash'.
Gentlemen, your experienced advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks for listening,
Yours in HiFi Sin,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
As I wrote in a previous post, I'm now a 'happy camper' with the addition of a Sony pre-power AV processor/amp to my 72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's for the purposes of adding HT capability.
The unit is running in, and producing some very engaging sound re movie soundtracks so far.
However, I'm running sans centre and sub, for the time being, re the usual impecunious circumstances of us HiFi 'geeks'.
As I'm perhaps a bit paranoid about the possible risk of damaging the SBL's with sudden very high level bass transients, re LFE movie effects etc, I've set the LFE channel to off. I can also adjust this re level, from -20Db up to 0Db, which is the standard LFE level.
My rear speakers, are a pair of EPI's, - US made bookshelf 2 way acoustic suspension design, with a frequency response of 55Hz - 20Khz +/- 3Db. Accordingly, I've set all four speakers to large, as I'm under the impression from my limited HT experience, that this would give the best sound.
Before getting the new kit, I was running the audio for movies from the DVD player, via it's analogue outputs. As I understand it from a few articles I've read, the 5.1 to 2 channel downmix process in the DVD player, disregards the LFE, and sums all the other channels into two.
Whilst this was a compromise, as the dowmixing apparently causes level mismatch, and hence masking and loss of detail, and also a loss of dynamics re transient attack etc, the sound was nonetheless well balanced re tonality etc.
In the new setup however, I note that the sound is a bit bass light, compared to how it was before, as I've detailed above.
I'm thinking that as in the previous setup, I was effectively getting all the channels summed into two, then perhaps I'd be better off setting the rear speakers to 'small' and letting bass management redirect the low bass to the SBL's.
I'm not sure if this is the best way to do it, or even if there's much low bass below 50HZ in rear surround 5.1 DD/DTS soundtracks etc, but most importantly I'm concerned in case it might overload the SBL's expecting them to handle the bass from all four channels.
Finally, the LFE. Again, I could turn this on, and attenuate the level slightly compared to reference, which is apparently on Dolby specs 10Db above the level for the other channels, but again I'm concerned/paranoid? about overdriving the SBL's. It's annoying not quite having the 'readies' for a sub just yet, and I don't want to miss out on what the audio side of movies has to offer, hence my musings over turning the LFE channel on.
BUT, am I/would I be expecting too much of the SBL's to handle both the bass for all four channels, PLUS the LFE as well? on these 'blockbuster' movies.
Lastly, I don't listen at very high levels, as apartment living demands some restraint, and also I'm much more interested in detail, ambience and overall finesse in the sound, rather than 'bang and crash'.
Gentlemen, your experienced advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks for listening,
Yours in HiFi Sin,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Hi All,
Many thanks for the replies/thoughts so far.
Stuart:
Are you using a sub here Stuart, or are the SBL's handling the LFE as well?
Peter:
EEEkkk!
Very much so, down the track I'm thinking along the lines of either one of the ST range of REL, or the THX M&K dual driver sealed box push pull designs. Velodyne would be another consderation. From what listening I have done, I tend to think the large Velodyne is very well suited to HT, but less so to music, the REL's are best for music, albeit a bit slow and lacking transient slam for HT, and the top M&K designs do both music and movies well, albeit they don't have the connection versatility of REL's, and are not as well finsihed/presented if you like the various woodgrain veneers offered by REL.
Frank:
I've actually done the balancing using one of those Radio shack/Tandy SPL level meters, and I've calibrated with the 72's volume set at 9 oclock. More than this produces noticeable hum when the TVs switched on. However I seem to get more than enough volume/power in my situation. I have to confess I'd be a little concerned with a 12 o'clock setting, as whilst I don't know how it would work re HT and effectively two ganged volume controls as I'm doing (master AV vol on processor + 72 vol) certainly 12 o'clock would almost certainly damage the SBL's on CD I tend to feel. Maybe I'm a little paranoid.
I'm going to give this a try. Last night, I did some experimenting, setting the rears to small, and crossover at 50hz.
Whilst the results gave me the extra sense of 'richness' and bass depth I was looking for, their was a penalty in that the sound became a bit 'clouded' re fine detail, a sense of decreased dynamics and transient slam, such that the penalty seemed slightly greater than the benefit.
Apparently, from some articles I've read in the 'comics' bass mangement/redirection is done via DSP, and is not always transparent, with phase shifts, increased distortion, and differing level matches, and is preferably avoided if one wants the 'purist' sound. According to one article I read, they even advised turning the sub setting to 'on', even if you don't have one connected, as this will turn off bass management.
From what I've made out from the instruction manual, turning the sub 'off' redirects the LFE to all 'large' speakers, ie bass management, so a trade off of hearing the full soundtrack, v's cleanliness/purity of sound I guess.
I don't know if what I heard last night was attributable to this, but in the end I felt the benefits outweighed the advantages, so I'm going to have another 'test' with rears set back to large, same as the SBL's, and set the LFE on, but attenuate it slightly and do some careful experimenting.
I've got some CD's (Telarc) of movie soundtracks, with the requisite warnings re 'special effects' etc being at high levels and potentially damaging to ones speakers. I assume, it is these 'special effects' which are present on the LFE channel on a DVD, hence my caution.
Have you, or anyone else had LFE running through SBL's in the same, or similar manner as I'm proposing to do? Have your SBL's survived to tell the tale?
I await tales of either distress or sucess from HT afflicted SBL owners.
Cheers All,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Many thanks for the replies/thoughts so far.
Stuart:
quote:
The SBLs have handled everything without complaint.
Are you using a sub here Stuart, or are the SBL's handling the LFE as well?
Peter:
quote:
If you hear distortion (or soft "plopping" sounds coming out of the woofer :-) this is the max for your speaker.
EEEkkk!
quote:
it can be hard finding a sub that sonically matches the SBL's *and your room*
Very much so, down the track I'm thinking along the lines of either one of the ST range of REL, or the THX M&K dual driver sealed box push pull designs. Velodyne would be another consderation. From what listening I have done, I tend to think the large Velodyne is very well suited to HT, but less so to music, the REL's are best for music, albeit a bit slow and lacking transient slam for HT, and the top M&K designs do both music and movies well, albeit they don't have the connection versatility of REL's, and are not as well finsihed/presented if you like the various woodgrain veneers offered by REL.
Frank:
quote:
You shouldn't worry about blowing the speakers. If you've set it up so that the 72's volume is set to 12 o'clock for a balanced result (that's how I usually setup systems like this), then the maximum you'd get from it is 12 o'clock anyway which won't blow the speakers.
I've actually done the balancing using one of those Radio shack/Tandy SPL level meters, and I've calibrated with the 72's volume set at 9 oclock. More than this produces noticeable hum when the TVs switched on. However I seem to get more than enough volume/power in my situation. I have to confess I'd be a little concerned with a 12 o'clock setting, as whilst I don't know how it would work re HT and effectively two ganged volume controls as I'm doing (master AV vol on processor + 72 vol) certainly 12 o'clock would almost certainly damage the SBL's on CD I tend to feel. Maybe I'm a little paranoid.
quote:
In terms of LFE, switch it on, but play with it.
I'm going to give this a try. Last night, I did some experimenting, setting the rears to small, and crossover at 50hz.
Whilst the results gave me the extra sense of 'richness' and bass depth I was looking for, their was a penalty in that the sound became a bit 'clouded' re fine detail, a sense of decreased dynamics and transient slam, such that the penalty seemed slightly greater than the benefit.
Apparently, from some articles I've read in the 'comics' bass mangement/redirection is done via DSP, and is not always transparent, with phase shifts, increased distortion, and differing level matches, and is preferably avoided if one wants the 'purist' sound. According to one article I read, they even advised turning the sub setting to 'on', even if you don't have one connected, as this will turn off bass management.
From what I've made out from the instruction manual, turning the sub 'off' redirects the LFE to all 'large' speakers, ie bass management, so a trade off of hearing the full soundtrack, v's cleanliness/purity of sound I guess.
I don't know if what I heard last night was attributable to this, but in the end I felt the benefits outweighed the advantages, so I'm going to have another 'test' with rears set back to large, same as the SBL's, and set the LFE on, but attenuate it slightly and do some careful experimenting.
I've got some CD's (Telarc) of movie soundtracks, with the requisite warnings re 'special effects' etc being at high levels and potentially damaging to ones speakers. I assume, it is these 'special effects' which are present on the LFE channel on a DVD, hence my caution.
Have you, or anyone else had LFE running through SBL's in the same, or similar manner as I'm proposing to do? Have your SBL's survived to tell the tale?
I await tales of either distress or sucess from HT afflicted SBL owners.
Cheers All,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Hello All,
Well it's a late/lazy Saturday, after a very late Friday evening, tweaking and experimenting/testing, and upon logging on, I'm once again finding myself most grateful and warmed by the kind, informative, and most helpful replies.
Gus:
In the Sony, I have Off, 0.1 to 0.9, STD, and max.
So far I've just left it set to off. The handbook makes mention of using the max setting for nightime use, and STD is for the dynamic range intended by the producer.
My thoughts are that leaving compression off would (?) give the best sound at 'normal' listening levels, whilst some compression is to be preferred if listening at lower levels, or at least that's the impression I've gained from magazine articles I've read etc. But yes, thanks for the suggestion re using it to limit some of the heavier transients - however I'm assuming/hoping the same as you re:
Certainly dynamic/transient 'slam' is a good part of the excitement of an 'action' movie, and I'm hoping the SBL's will be fine without having to limit the performance slightly for 'normal' volume levels, by applying compression.
I did 'rig' it up this way initially when I first got the DVD player, but as yet I haven't got any music DVD's. But I'm intending to do so, as the 9000ES DVD will also play two channel SACD, however I haven't any of those either! - but wouldn't expect it to outperform the CDI on music. Still, I don't stick my head in the sand with these sorts of things, and will be trying it with an SACD disc when I eventually get around to buying one.
Thanks Gus, yeah it was quite a headache for sometime, I'm really enjoying finally having it. And good luck with your upgrades as well.
Stuart:
Thanks for writing in again Stuart, and I'm very pleased to hear that the SBL's are handling the bass from the 'small' speakers, ie your IBL's and other rear speakers, as well as the LFE. I must be a bit 'paranoid' about damaging the SBL's I think, as I do feel greatly relieved to hear of your experiences.
Matt:
Hi Matt, and even though I'm a relative 'newbie' to the forums here, may I take the liberty on behalf of all, of welcoming you. This thread, like many others 'works' because of the thoughtful input from the various contributors.
Even if one is a competent typist, it still takes time to post, and I most certainly enjoy and appreciate the shared knowledge and experience, and particularly appreciate people such as yourself and others giving up their time to write in the detailed and informative ways as you all do.
Thank you for your most interesting and helpful 'first post', and I do hope we all may hear more from you.
Thank you for setting me right with this - my experience with subs is quite limited, and I'd appreciate hearing more about subs generally, particularly if you've managed to hear/compare various models etc, and also are you 'integrating' it with your own Naim equipment? - I'm assuming you own Naim amps/speakers etc.
A friend has a Velodyne HGS 15 which I've heard in his HT setup. He also uses it for music, and commented that it was slightly better for HT. I can't personally verify this, as I only heard it with HT. I also gained this impression from a couple of reviews I've read, but as we all know, ones own ears are the best guide usually. The problem of course is actually being able to listen to the higher end subs etc.
Again with the REL's, I've only heard the Q400, and the Srata 111, my other impressions re Movie use again being garnered from reviews unfortunately. M&K I've only ever heard once, and it was one of the smaller models. I'd like to investigate them further, as they do get very good write ups as well. Of course, I'd be most interested in hearing of your opinion, as to have a sub of such quality as a Velodyne implies that you have done some serious homework.
In testing/experimenting, I have found that the sound quality is better OVERALL with the rears set to 'large' 'Small', with a 50Hz crossover, does give the 'richer' sound I was looking for, but with unacceptable penalties with regards dynamics,subtle detail etc, as I mentioned earlier. I would attribute this to the DSP involved in re-routing bass from the rears to the SBL's. A tradeoff admitedly, but I prefered the clarity, and dynamic attack with the rears at 'large' overall, despite them only going down to 55Hz.
From the manual, setting the sub to 'no' on the Sony, redirects LFE, plus bass from any other speakers set to 'small' to the fronts/other speakers set to large. Hence with all four speakers set to large, the LFE will be summed by bass management and sent to all four speakers, or at least that's how I best understand it from the manual. I agree about centre speakers, as I should imagine their will be DSP involved as well to blend the centre with the front left and rights, and almost certainly another slight penalty soundwise I'm inclined to think.
I agree totally. Part of true infrasonics IS actually feeling the sound as well as hearing it. Or it least it was the last time I was in a Cathedral listening to an Organ recital. A 32' organ stop has a fundemental resonance of 16Hz, bass you can feel more than hear, apart from the first harmonic at 32hz. But LFE down to 10Hz - sounds awesome
Last night, I reset the rears to 'large', having tried small with results as I've mentioned, and switched on the LFE, but attenuated it by 10Db. I say 10Db loosely, as the Sony allows LFE 'trim' ie mix level from 0, down to -20Db. As the DD spec is for LFE to be boosted to 10Db above the other channels, so as to balance out with the summing effect of the other 5 channels, I thought setting roughly minus 10Db would be a resonable place to start.
Well, that's definitely the best result so far. Admittedly, sometimes the sound was a bit 'lean' but on explosions, deep bass etc, whilst I realise I'd only be getting the upper harmonics of LFE, it was pretty darned impressive. I watched two action flicks - Patriot, and The Fifth Element, and one 'quieter' one - American Beauty. Fith Element was quite stunning, although very high bass levels at times - not in extension, but volume. Still, there were no signs of distress, although I can't quite remember hearing such high levels of bass from the SBL's before.
I'll try to do some more experimenting as well with the Sony proprietary Digital Cinema Sound modes, to see how I fare. In the meantime, I feel a little relieved to realise that the SBLs will perhaps handle a bit more than I thought, provided I don't go silly with the volume, thank goodness.
Needless to say, if anyone has had problems with the SBL's re HT, or just general overloading, I'm sure many of us would like to hear. And of course how you've set up your SBL's re your HT generally - they may be 'replaced' by the SL2, but they're still quite a superb speaker IMHO.
Cheers All,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Well it's a late/lazy Saturday, after a very late Friday evening, tweaking and experimenting/testing, and upon logging on, I'm once again finding myself most grateful and warmed by the kind, informative, and most helpful replies.
Gus:
quote:
you can set the dynamic range in the AV amp. In mine I have a max/normal/min setting. Iusually have it on normal.
In the Sony, I have Off, 0.1 to 0.9, STD, and max.
So far I've just left it set to off. The handbook makes mention of using the max setting for nightime use, and STD is for the dynamic range intended by the producer.
My thoughts are that leaving compression off would (?) give the best sound at 'normal' listening levels, whilst some compression is to be preferred if listening at lower levels, or at least that's the impression I've gained from magazine articles I've read etc. But yes, thanks for the suggestion re using it to limit some of the heavier transients - however I'm assuming/hoping the same as you re:
quote:
I assume that the naim gear is not capable of make controlled transients severe enough to damage the speakers.
Certainly dynamic/transient 'slam' is a good part of the excitement of an 'action' movie, and I'm hoping the SBL's will be fine without having to limit the performance slightly for 'normal' volume levels, by applying compression.
quote:
Have you tried connecting the 2 channel analog output of the dvd straight into the Naim amp? I prefer this for music dvds.
I did 'rig' it up this way initially when I first got the DVD player, but as yet I haven't got any music DVD's. But I'm intending to do so, as the 9000ES DVD will also play two channel SACD, however I haven't any of those either! - but wouldn't expect it to outperform the CDI on music. Still, I don't stick my head in the sand with these sorts of things, and will be trying it with an SACD disc when I eventually get around to buying one.
quote:
Anyway, congrats on the new AV amp! I know you have been thinking about it for a while.
Thanks Gus, yeah it was quite a headache for sometime, I'm really enjoying finally having it.
And good luck with your upgrades as well.Stuart:
quote:
SBLs are handling the LFE as well as I've no sub in place.
Thanks for writing in again Stuart, and I'm very pleased to hear that the SBL's are handling the bass from the 'small' speakers, ie your IBL's and other rear speakers, as well as the LFE. I must be a bit 'paranoid' about damaging the SBL's I think, as I do feel greatly relieved to hear of your experiences.
Matt:
quote:
Fascinating thread - the questions of how to get your AV set up right.
Hi Matt, and even though I'm a relative 'newbie' to the forums here, may I take the liberty on behalf of all, of welcoming you. This thread, like many others 'works' because of the thoughtful input from the various contributors.
Even if one is a competent typist, it still takes time to post, and I most certainly enjoy and appreciate the shared knowledge and experience, and particularly appreciate people such as yourself and others giving up their time to write in the detailed and informative ways as you all do.
Thank you for your most interesting and helpful 'first post', and I do hope we all may hear more from you.
quote:
Big Velodyne's no good with music? If you are talking about the big expensive (servo controlled) HGS models then this is nonsense - they have arguably the lowest distortion figures you could imagine - spot on with music, awesome with films - I speak from experience (one lives in my lounge) - the only problem is that they aren't cheap - you're talking £2k plus - but then compared to the top REL models this isn't that expensive.
Thank you for setting me right with this - my experience with subs is quite limited, and I'd appreciate hearing more about subs generally, particularly if you've managed to hear/compare various models etc, and also are you 'integrating' it with your own Naim equipment? - I'm assuming you own Naim amps/speakers etc.
A friend has a Velodyne HGS 15 which I've heard in his HT setup. He also uses it for music, and commented that it was slightly better for HT. I can't personally verify this, as I only heard it with HT. I also gained this impression from a couple of reviews I've read, but as we all know, ones own ears are the best guide usually. The problem of course is actually being able to listen to the higher end subs etc.
Again with the REL's, I've only heard the Q400, and the Srata 111, my other impressions re Movie use again being garnered from reviews unfortunately. M&K I've only ever heard once, and it was one of the smaller models. I'd like to investigate them further, as they do get very good write ups as well. Of course, I'd be most interested in hearing of your opinion, as to have a sub of such quality as a Velodyne implies that you have done some serious homework.
quote:
You are right in what you say about bass management i.e. that it is done badly by some amps/receivers - I would expect a sony processor to be fairly well sussed in this area though - again, let your ears be the judge.
In testing/experimenting, I have found that the sound quality is better OVERALL with the rears set to 'large' 'Small', with a 50Hz crossover, does give the 'richer' sound I was looking for, but with unacceptable penalties with regards dynamics,subtle detail etc, as I mentioned earlier. I would attribute this to the DSP involved in re-routing bass from the rears to the SBL's. A tradeoff admitedly, but I prefered the clarity, and dynamic attack with the rears at 'large' overall, despite them only going down to 55Hz.
quote:
I'm not sure that saying "no sub" automatically sets all speakers to large
From the manual, setting the sub to 'no' on the Sony, redirects LFE, plus bass from any other speakers set to 'small' to the fronts/other speakers set to large. Hence with all four speakers set to large, the LFE will be summed by bass management and sent to all four speakers, or at least that's how I best understand it from the manual. I agree about centre speakers, as I should imagine their will be DSP involved as well to blend the centre with the front left and rights, and almost certainly another slight penalty soundwise I'm inclined to think.
quote:
Can you get by without a sub - of course but if you want to hear the full range then unless you have a very special pair of mains (DBLs etc) then a sub is needed
I agree totally. Part of true infrasonics IS actually feeling the sound as well as hearing it. Or it least it was the last time I was in a Cathedral listening to an Organ recital. A 32' organ stop has a fundemental resonance of 16Hz, bass you can feel more than hear, apart from the first harmonic at 32hz. But LFE down to 10Hz - sounds awesome
Last night, I reset the rears to 'large', having tried small with results as I've mentioned, and switched on the LFE, but attenuated it by 10Db. I say 10Db loosely, as the Sony allows LFE 'trim' ie mix level from 0, down to -20Db. As the DD spec is for LFE to be boosted to 10Db above the other channels, so as to balance out with the summing effect of the other 5 channels, I thought setting roughly minus 10Db would be a resonable place to start.
Well, that's definitely the best result so far. Admittedly, sometimes the sound was a bit 'lean' but on explosions, deep bass etc, whilst I realise I'd only be getting the upper harmonics of LFE, it was pretty darned impressive. I watched two action flicks - Patriot, and The Fifth Element, and one 'quieter' one - American Beauty. Fith Element was quite stunning, although very high bass levels at times - not in extension, but volume. Still, there were no signs of distress, although I can't quite remember hearing such high levels of bass from the SBL's before.
I'll try to do some more experimenting as well with the Sony proprietary Digital Cinema Sound modes, to see how I fare. In the meantime, I feel a little relieved to realise that the SBLs will perhaps handle a bit more than I thought, provided I don't go silly with the volume, thank goodness.
Needless to say, if anyone has had problems with the SBL's re HT, or just general overloading, I'm sure many of us would like to hear. And of course how you've set up your SBL's re your HT generally - they may be 'replaced' by the SL2, but they're still quite a superb speaker IMHO.
Cheers All,
John.
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary